From jonathan.argles at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 01:41:16 2008 From: jonathan.argles at gmail.com (Jonathan Argles) Date: Sat Mar 1 01:42:27 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Love me some Elemental Contract In-Reply-To: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> As all elements are equal, and all damages subject to wyrd rather than the quantity of the element, it's not the actual element itself which is creating the damage, but the concept of it as a source of power. The book says that any element used in classical cosmologies is acceptable, which according to good ole wiki means that these are fair game. fire earth air water wood metal *void/shadow* smoke electricity glass Now, it's IMPOSSIBLE for shadow to cause you damage in its natural form - unless it blinds you and makes you fall over, which reinforces the idea of the damage coming from the concept of the power of the element rather than its direct manifestation. As apart from a couple of cinematic touches, such as lighting cigs, watering flowers, blowing out a candle, all elements are equal, regardless of kith, fire and electricity should no more ignore armor than wood or metal. Jon A UK0006964 From jonathan.argles at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 01:50:23 2008 From: jonathan.argles at gmail.com (Jonathan Argles) Date: Sat Mar 1 01:51:33 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Love me some Elemental Contract In-Reply-To: <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> References: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> Actually, as we've got Justin's beady eye here, can we get an elemental bestiary, so that people know what else is acceptable? I mean, I know that people don't want to reveal their custom mechanics for kiths, bloodlines, powers and the like, which is not fine, but understandable, but surely we should be able to see the elements that have been approved for play, just by scraping the VSTs? For my part, I was wondering about phlogiston :) Jon A UK0006964 From jonathan.argles at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 09:46:11 2008 From: jonathan.argles at gmail.com (Jonathan Argles) Date: Sat Mar 1 09:47:30 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Love me some Elemental Contract In-Reply-To: <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> References: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d014aea0803010646g2bb37578j83f7102ff89b237f@mail.gmail.com> I've got another point, too. Eternal Summer - level 2, Ulf's Wossname, states that it's not a real sun, and doesn't do agg to vampires and other light sensitive creatures. Level 5: (Something about a Lord's Vengeance?) says that it is. So, if we do want to add balance to Elemental Contracts, we could easily, and consistently with canon, say that the level two power isn't a real element - so no agg or continuous burning with fire, but the level two one is. Jon A UK0006964 On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 6:50 AM, Jonathan Argles wrote: > Actually, as we've got Justin's beady eye here, can we get an > elemental bestiary, so that people know what else is acceptable? > > I mean, I know that people don't want to reveal their custom mechanics > for kiths, bloodlines, powers and the like, which is not fine, but > understandable, but surely we should be able to see the elements that > have been approved for play, just by scraping the VSTs? > > For my part, I was wondering about phlogiston :) > > Jon A > UK0006964 > From white-wolf at stormmage.com Sat Mar 1 11:06:19 2008 From: white-wolf at stormmage.com (Troy Lees) Date: Sat Mar 1 11:07:31 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Love me some Elemental Contract In-Reply-To: <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> References: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: According to the addendum, you can have any element from the periodic table that is not man made (as in, atoms made by scientists) or radioactive, subject to VST approval. This has been clarified by Lesley to also mean combinations of elements (for instance, a bronze or porcelain elemental if you wanted to or a generic metal elemental - see metalflesh kith from WM). There are no custom mechanics for elements yet that I'm aware of. Phlostigon is not an element because its a scientific theory, not an actual element, IMO. -- Troy Lees - US2007059970 Changeling VST www.soulswithoutnames.com - FL-037-D On 3/1/08, Jonathan Argles wrote: > > Actually, as we've got Justin's beady eye here, can we get an > elemental bestiary, so that people know what else is acceptable? > > I mean, I know that people don't want to reveal their custom mechanics > for kiths, bloodlines, powers and the like, which is not fine, but > understandable, but surely we should be able to see the elements that > have been approved for play, just by scraping the VSTs? > > For my part, I was wondering about phlogiston :) > > > Jon A > UK0006964 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080301/97cde1d7/attachment.html From eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 11:13:07 2008 From: eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sat Mar 1 11:14:22 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Love me some Elemental Contract In-Reply-To: References: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8efd93220803010813yed32003v5a932f6cae09b561@mail.gmail.com> So what about Void/Ether? That's much the same, but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in canon somewhere. On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Troy Lees wrote: > Phlostigon is not an element because its a scientific theory, not an > actual element, IMO. -- Eric Moore US2004112432 I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. You are in my Monkeysphere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080301/76a3851b/attachment.html From white-wolf at stormmage.com Sat Mar 1 11:36:19 2008 From: white-wolf at stormmage.com (Troy Lees) Date: Sat Mar 1 11:37:30 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Love me some Elemental Contract In-Reply-To: <8efd93220803010813yed32003v5a932f6cae09b561@mail.gmail.com> References: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220803010813yed32003v5a932f6cae09b561@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Page reference? I can't seem to find it. -- Troy Lees - US2007059970 Changeling VST www.soulswithoutnames.com - FL-037-D On 3/1/08, Eric Moore wrote: > > So what about Void/Ether? That's much the same, but I'm pretty sure it's > mentioned in canon somewhere. > > On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Troy Lees > wrote: > > > Phlostigon is not an element because its a scientific theory, not an > > actual element, IMO. > > > -- > Eric Moore > US2004112432 > I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. > You are in my Monkeysphere. > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080301/6a404e3c/attachment.html From eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 11:49:23 2008 From: eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sat Mar 1 11:50:43 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Love me some Elemental Contract In-Reply-To: References: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220803010813yed32003v5a932f6cae09b561@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8efd93220803010849l104787c4h743e71b29c8fcb0c@mail.gmail.com> That's cause I was apparently misremembering. I can't find it either. On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 11:36 AM, Troy Lees wrote: > Page reference? I can't seem to find it. -- Eric Moore US2004112432 I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. You are in my Monkeysphere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080301/4075ae91/attachment.html From eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com Sat Mar 1 11:55:33 2008 From: eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sat Mar 1 12:03:10 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Love me some Elemental Contract In-Reply-To: <8efd93220803010849l104787c4h743e71b29c8fcb0c@mail.gmail.com> References: <342009.3158.qm@web62207.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <2d014aea0802292241t6e5b3107nbc2b99cbd5534294@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0802292250o786d37a8x42dd312ee7fe0225@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220803010813yed32003v5a932f6cae09b561@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220803010849l104787c4h743e71b29c8fcb0c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8efd93220803010855u5cdc771eq789a9d32e95c6f3a@mail.gmail.com> Wait, no, I got it. It's one of the traditional five Japanese elements, which would be included (but not named specifically) in the last full paragraph on page 138 of CtL when it refers to other classical elemental possibilities. However, void/ether could be argued to not have a physical manifestation by definition, though the lack of physicality is the manifestation of void. Phlogiston, being a theory discarded as false, could fall under the same argument in that it doesn't have an actual manifestation, although it was believed to have one. On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 11:49 AM, Eric Moore wrote: > That's cause I was apparently misremembering. I can't find it either. -- Eric Moore US2004112432 I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. You are in my Monkeysphere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080301/13f2df3c/attachment-0001.html From eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 03:36:35 2008 From: eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun Mar 2 03:37:49 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] System Permutation: Ace Again Message-ID: <8efd93220803020036g3bd6f0bej32c8d86ca56bcc33@mail.gmail.com> Okay, I've been trying to answer my own question about how to handle the Greater Curse in Changeling, and I thought I hit upon the answer in the following combination: - Lesser Curse: Loss of 10 again for duration. - Medial Curse: Double Trouble - Draw of an Ace or a 2 is an automatic failure. - Greater Curse: Ace Again - MET p 182 Then I actually read what the Ace Again permutation does. It actually makes it less likely for an action to fail. If you draw an Ace, instead of it being an automatic failure, you subtract one from the test pool and draw again, subtracting that number from the test pool also (and drawing a third time if you get another Ace). So if you have a pool of 13 or higher, it's actually possible to succeed when you draw an Ace (an Ace and a deuce will drop your pool to 10, which is one success since the Ace isn't an automatic failure in this case). Which is actually pretty cool, except that the point of this particular system permutation is supposed to indicate the chance that an action can "spiral out of control" instead of being a "simple failure". Is this a mistake in the text, or is this permutation utterly useless for what it was designed for? Then there's some conflicting text on how this works and it's limits. It says the first Ace counts as a -1, the second counts as a -2, the third as a -3, etc. What that means, going by what I'm used to seeing in printed instructions, is that the pool will be reduced by 1 for the first Ace, (1+2) for two Aces, (1+2+3) for three in a row, etc. However, it goes on to say that the most a pool can be reduced by is 12, for two Aces and a 10 drawn. Not only does this contradict the way I'm used to reading the rules, it also contradicts the part right before it that describes what happens if you draw three aces: you draw a fourth time, and if that's an Ace, you keep going. So what's the correct method of implementing this rule to reduce failure: stop it at two Aces and the third card, or let the character totally whack out and draw Aces until s/he stops? Do we count Aces the way we count Trait dots (1+2+3+4+5), or just as one each? And if anyone has any ideas on what to actually do about that Greater Curse I mentioned, I'd love some help there too. -- Eric Moore US2004112432 I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. You are in my Monkeysphere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/bf73612e/attachment.html From twhitney at bigpond.net.au Sun Mar 2 10:45:53 2008 From: twhitney at bigpond.net.au (Thomas Whitney) Date: Sun Mar 2 10:47:27 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... Message-ID: Hi, Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am missing, but does armor stack? Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage at all? One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool, am I wrong? Regards, Thomas Whitney AU2001100359 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080303/1537e806/attachment.html From srblack1167 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 2 11:25:43 2008 From: srblack1167 at yahoo.com (Steven R. Black II) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:26:53 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] PC who has reached BP 7+ In-Reply-To: <61404a660802291152u3fccdf8ek532ec10a207bb8cd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <682082.83303.qm@web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Q: Does a Vampire PC who has reached BP 7+ and had the merits "Herd" > and "Haven Location" cease to gain any benefit from those merits? > Are they eligible for an xp refund or are they allowed to "loan" out > the benefits to others? Vampires in the Camarilla chronicle require PCs to feed from. So, it can be assumed that the PC-Victim could gain the benefits from those merits. However, only when the use of these merits are used to feed the feeder. In other words: "Yes, but..." Yes: The character benefits from the two merits because he opens his victims to full access to these sources. But: If he loans his merits to his victims, but the victims don't in turn share that vitae to the feeder the vicitm benefits from the merit, not the feeder. The victim would have to buy the merits, and the feeder would loose the merit. How to figure out which applies: When the victim benefits more than one month in a row from the merits, and the feeder doesn't victimize the other durring that time the merit should be passed over with XP debt. ----- Keep in mind. I'm not an ST, but it just goes to consider the question of who is benefiting from the Merit and smart elders figure out how to share the hunt with the pups so they can cannibalize. Also, keep track of which PC the elder is blood bound to and which ones they feed from. ----- Black US2004092130 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From emailtojerry at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:37:59 2008 From: emailtojerry at gmail.com (Jerry Spaulding) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:39:12 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] System Permutation: Ace Again In-Reply-To: <8efd93220803020036g3bd6f0bej32c8d86ca56bcc33@mail.gmail.com> References: <8efd93220803020036g3bd6f0bej32c8d86ca56bcc33@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The ace again doesn't make a lot of sense without dramatic failures, and I am betting it is a holdover from creating the system. If you have DFs, then ace-again can make your draw pool decrease to the point of it being a Chance Draw. So you have failed, then your pool goes down to zero and you are at a chance draw, and thus have dramatically failed. As for Major Curse, how about Loss of 8,9, AND 10-again along with double-trouble? On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 3:36 AM, Eric Moore wrote: > Okay, I've been trying to answer my own question about how to handle the > Greater Curse in Changeling, and I thought I hit upon the answer in the > following combination: > > Lesser Curse: Loss of 10 again for duration. > Medial Curse: Double Trouble - Draw of an Ace or a 2 is an automatic > failure. > Greater Curse: Ace Again - MET p 182 > Then I actually read what the Ace Again permutation does. It actually makes > it less likely for an action to fail. If you draw an Ace, instead of it > being an automatic failure, you subtract one from the test pool and draw > again, subtracting that number from the test pool also (and drawing a third > time if you get another Ace). So if you have a pool of 13 or higher, it's > actually possible to succeed when you draw an Ace (an Ace and a deuce will > drop your pool to 10, which is one success since the Ace isn't an automatic > failure in this case). Which is actually pretty cool, except that the point > of this particular system permutation is supposed to indicate the chance > that an action can "spiral out of control" instead of being a "simple > failure". Is this a mistake in the text, or is this permutation utterly > useless for what it was designed for? > > Then there's some conflicting text on how this works and it's limits. It > says the first Ace counts as a -1, the second counts as a -2, the third as a > -3, etc. What that means, going by what I'm used to seeing in printed > instructions, is that the pool will be reduced by 1 for the first Ace, (1+2) > for two Aces, (1+2+3) for three in a row, etc. However, it goes on to say > that the most a pool can be reduced by is 12, for two Aces and a 10 drawn. > Not only does this contradict the way I'm used to reading the rules, it also > contradicts the part right before it that describes what happens if you draw > three aces: you draw a fourth time, and if that's an Ace, you keep going. So > what's the correct method of implementing this rule to reduce failure: stop > it at two Aces and the third card, or let the character totally whack out > and draw Aces until s/he stops? Do we count Aces the way we count Trait dots > (1+2+3+4+5), or just as one each? > > And if anyone has any ideas on what to actually do about that Greater Curse > I mentioned, I'd love some help there too. > > -- > Eric Moore > US2004112432 > I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. > You are in my Monkeysphere. > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Jeremiah Spaulding US2002023190 VST:Requiem ME-009-I From emailtojerry at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:40:34 2008 From: emailtojerry at gmail.com (Jerry Spaulding) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:41:45 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court advantage does not say anything. As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card is 7. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > > > Hi, > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am > missing, but does armor stack? > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage > at all? > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool, > am I wrong? > > > Regards, > > Thomas Whitney > AU2001100359 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Jeremiah Spaulding US2002023190 VST:Requiem ME-009-I From delwin at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:42:52 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:44:02 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all. David Sauter US2002021140 On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > advantage does not say anything. > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > is 7. > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am > > missing, but does armor stack? > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage > > at all? > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool, > > am I wrong? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Thomas Whitney > > AU2001100359 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > -- > Jeremiah Spaulding > US2002023190 > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- ------ David S From emailtojerry at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:43:10 2008 From: emailtojerry at gmail.com (Jerry Spaulding) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:44:26 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] PC who has reached BP 7+ In-Reply-To: <682082.83303.qm@web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <61404a660802291152u3fccdf8ek532ec10a207bb8cd@mail.gmail.com> <682082.83303.qm@web52108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If you give someone access to your herd, to benefit for more than a month, they need to buy it. Haven Location however, has a trick. They can buy into it as a Shared haven for 1 or 2 xp, depending on their covenant, and take advantage of the entire Haven Location score. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:25 AM, Steven R. Black II wrote: > > Q: Does a Vampire PC who has reached BP 7+ and had the merits "Herd" > > and "Haven Location" cease to gain any benefit from those merits? > > Are they eligible for an xp refund or are they allowed to "loan" out > > the benefits to others? > Vampires in the Camarilla chronicle require PCs to feed from. So, it > can be assumed that the PC-Victim could gain the benefits from those > merits. However, only when the use of these merits are used to feed > the feeder. > > In other words: "Yes, but..." > Yes: The character benefits from the two merits because he opens his > victims to full access to these sources. > But: If he loans his merits to his victims, but the victims don't in > turn share that vitae to the feeder the vicitm benefits from the merit, > not the feeder. The victim would have to buy the merits, and the > feeder would loose the merit. > How to figure out which applies: When the victim benefits more than one > month in a row from the merits, and the feeder doesn't victimize the > other durring that time the merit should be passed over with XP debt. > > ----- > > Keep in mind. I'm not an ST, but it just goes to consider the question > of who is benefiting from the Merit and smart elders figure out how to > share the hunt with the pups so they can cannibalize. Also, keep track > of which PC the elder is blood bound to and which ones they feed from. > > ----- > > Black > US2004092130 > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Jeremiah Spaulding US2002023190 VST:Requiem ME-009-I From emailtojerry at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:48:26 2008 From: emailtojerry at gmail.com (Jerry Spaulding) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:49:37 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, I don't think it is. Do you have a page #? On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:42 AM, David Sauter wrote: > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > > advantage does not say anything. > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > > is 7. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am > > > missing, but does armor stack? > > > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. > > > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > > > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage > > > at all? > > > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool, > > > am I wrong? > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Thomas Whitney > > > AU2001100359 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > US2002023190 > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Jeremiah Spaulding US2002023190 VST:Requiem ME-009-I From twhitney at bigpond.net.au Sun Mar 2 11:51:39 2008 From: twhitney at bigpond.net.au (Thomas Whitney) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:53:18 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11870E76BCE240008E7032A1CA85230E@ThomasPC> Hi again, One last question. Before people were talking about armor reducing damage, but you confirmed it reducing dice attack pools; my question is does it do both? Regards, Thomas Whitney AU2001100359 From: "Jerry Spaulding" Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > advantage does not say anything. > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > is 7. > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney > wrote: >> >> >> Hi, >> >> Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am >> missing, but does armor stack? >> >> Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming >> that >> things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head >> and >> works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. >> >> 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + >> 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + >> 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) >> >> Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor >> >> If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any >> damage >> at all? >> >> One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice >> pool, >> am I wrong? >> >> >> Regards, >> >> Thomas Whitney >> AU2001100359 From delwin at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:52:19 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:53:29 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20803020852g7f6e1516o1060d4c5fbcdc7a8@mail.gmail.com> For the definition of 'trait'? I read 'trait' as 'anything on your character sheet'. I've never seen a formal definition. If you want anything more detailed you'd have to get it out of Jon or Paul since this is straight from the US Addendum. David Sauter US2002021140 On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > Actually, I don't think it is. Do you have a page #? > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:42 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait > > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > > > advantage does not say anything. > > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of > > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > > > is 7. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am > > > > missing, but does armor stack? > > > > > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that > > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and > > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. > > > > > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > > > > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > > > > > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage > > > > at all? > > > > > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool, > > > > am I wrong? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Whitney > > > > AU2001100359 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > > US2002023190 > > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------ > > David S > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > -- > Jeremiah Spaulding > US2002023190 > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- ------ David S From emailtojerry at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:54:36 2008 From: emailtojerry at gmail.com (Jerry Spaulding) Date: Sun Mar 2 11:55:46 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <11870E76BCE240008E7032A1CA85230E@ThomasPC> References: <11870E76BCE240008E7032A1CA85230E@ThomasPC> Message-ID: On MeT p.247 you can see info on fire. It states that armor protects against this in a special way. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > Hi again, > > One last question. Before people were talking about armor reducing damage, > but you confirmed it reducing dice attack pools; my question is does it do > both? > > Regards, > > Thomas Whitney > AU2001100359 > > > From: "Jerry Spaulding" > Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... > > > > > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > > advantage does not say anything. > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > > is 7. > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney > > wrote: > >> > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am > >> missing, but does armor stack? > >> > >> Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming > >> that > >> things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head > >> and > >> works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. > >> > >> 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > >> 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > >> 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > >> > >> Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > >> > >> If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any > >> damage > >> at all? > >> > >> One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice > >> pool, > >> am I wrong? > >> > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Thomas Whitney > >> AU2001100359 > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Jeremiah Spaulding US2002023190 VST:Requiem ME-009-I From emailtojerry at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 11:59:14 2008 From: emailtojerry at gmail.com (Jerry Spaulding) Date: Sun Mar 2 12:00:25 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803020852g7f6e1516o1060d4c5fbcdc7a8@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020852g7f6e1516o1060d4c5fbcdc7a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thats a good question. I see it more of an equipment bonus than a Trait. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:52 AM, David Sauter wrote: > For the definition of 'trait'? I read 'trait' as 'anything on your > character sheet'. I've never seen a formal definition. If you want > anything more detailed you'd have to get it out of Jon or Paul since > this is straight from the US Addendum. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > > Actually, I don't think it is. Do you have a page #? > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:42 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait > > > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all. > > > > > > David Sauter > > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > > > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > > > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > > > > advantage does not say anything. > > > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of > > > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > > > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > > > > is 7. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am > > > > > missing, but does armor stack? > > > > > > > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that > > > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and > > > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. > > > > > > > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > > > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > > > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > > > > > > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > > > > > > > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage > > > > > at all? > > > > > > > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool, > > > > > am I wrong? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Whitney > > > > > AU2001100359 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > > > US2002023190 > > > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ------ > > > David S > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > US2002023190 > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Jeremiah Spaulding US2002023190 VST:Requiem ME-009-I From uradunce at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 12:01:23 2008 From: uradunce at gmail.com (Andrew J. Trujillo) Date: Sun Mar 2 12:02:35 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020852g7f6e1516o1060d4c5fbcdc7a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c19e06c0803020901q49257ab9t85c6228790083530@mail.gmail.com> There are instances where a power says it stacks. Those would be the exception. The Rhino Hide devotion comes to mind. Otherwise I believe David is entirely correct. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > Thats a good question. I see it more of an equipment bonus than a Trait. > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:52 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > For the definition of 'trait'? I read 'trait' as 'anything on your > > character sheet'. I've never seen a formal definition. If you want > > anything more detailed you'd have to get it out of Jon or Paul since > > this is straight from the US Addendum. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Jerry Spaulding > wrote: > > > Actually, I don't think it is. Do you have a page #? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:42 AM, David Sauter > wrote: > > > > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest > trait > > > > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all. > > > > > > > > David Sauter > > > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding < > emailtojerry@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the > Stonebones > > > > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer > court > > > > > advantage does not say anything. > > > > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw > pool of > > > > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is > 5 and > > > > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw > a card > > > > > is 7. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney < > twhitney@bigpond.net.au> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple > answer that I am > > > > > > missing, but does armor stack? > > > > > > > > > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in > Changeling, assuming that > > > > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going > over in my head and > > > > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack > in changeling. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > > > > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > > > > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > > > > > > > > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 > armor > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to > do any damage > > > > > > at all? > > > > > > > > > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy > attack dice pool, > > > > > > am I wrong? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Whitney > > > > > > AU2001100359 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > > > > US2002023190 > > > > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ------ > > > > David S > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > > US2002023190 > > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------ > > David S > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > -- > Jeremiah Spaulding > US2002023190 > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Andrew J. Trujillo US2002076343 AMST: Dark Places on the Map A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! VST: Awakening Hawaii -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/cd9d9742/attachment.html From joe.carron at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 12:12:30 2008 From: joe.carron at gmail.com (Joe Carron) Date: Sun Mar 2 12:13:42 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> Armour does stack, this is even clarified by the MST FAQ. Armour is not a trait it is an equipment bonus. So you can wear or have multiple types of armour and get bonus from them all, unless of the course the armour says specifically it does not stack. Joe Carron US2002021243 NW ARST Settings On 3/2/08, David Sauter wrote: > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > > advantage does not say anything. > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > > is 7. > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am > > > missing, but does armor stack? > > > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. > > > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > > > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage > > > at all? > > > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool, > > > am I wrong? > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Thomas Whitney > > > AU2001100359 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > US2002023190 > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > From delwin at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 12:27:16 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Sun Mar 2 12:28:26 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> Equipment bonuses are traits of items, but they're still traits. Secondly - the MST FAQ is out of date and unenforcable and has been overruled by local ST's more than once resulting in the death of characters. David Sauter US2002021140 On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Joe Carron wrote: > Armour does stack, this is even clarified by the MST FAQ. Armour is > not a trait it is an equipment bonus. So you can wear or have > multiple types of armour and get bonus from them all, unless of the > course the armour says specifically it does not stack. > > Joe Carron > US2002021243 > NW ARST Settings > > > > > On 3/2/08, David Sauter wrote: > > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait > > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote: > > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > > > advantage does not say anything. > > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of > > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > > > is 7. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am > > > > missing, but does armor stack? > > > > > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that > > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and > > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling. > > > > > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > > > > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > > > > > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage > > > > at all? > > > > > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool, > > > > am I wrong? > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Thomas Whitney > > > > AU2001100359 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > > US2002023190 > > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------ > > David S > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- ------ David S From argynt at hotmail.com Sun Mar 2 12:33:20 2008 From: argynt at hotmail.com (James Leavings) Date: Sun Mar 2 12:34:31 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The current addendum released on Jan 8, 2008 says this about the MST FAQ "The MST?s office maintains a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) (camarilla.white-wolf.com/rules) document built in response to questions asked on the cam-rules email list. The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not official rules changes." The FAQ may be out of date, but it is still explicitly in use. Any STs ignoring it, especially if it causes a character death, should be investigated. Besides that, could we get a page number on whatever your using to refer to armor as a trait? I had a look and couldn't find it. James Leavings us2005106684 > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 10:27:16 -0700> From: delwin@gmail.com> To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling...> > Equipment bonuses are traits of items, but they're still traits.> > Secondly - the MST FAQ is out of date and unenforcable and has been> overruled by local ST's more than once resulting in the death of> characters.> > David Sauter> US2002021140> > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Joe Carron wrote:> > Armour does stack, this is even clarified by the MST FAQ. Armour is> > not a trait it is an equipment bonus. So you can wear or have> > multiple types of armour and get bonus from them all, unless of the> > course the armour says specifically it does not stack.> >> > Joe Carron> > US2002021243> > NW ARST Settings> >> >> >> >> > On 3/2/08, David Sauter wrote:> > > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait> > > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all.> > >> > > David Sauter> > > US2002021140> > >> > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding wrote:> > > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones> > > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court> > > > advantage does not say anything.> > > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool of> > > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and> > > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card> > > > is 7.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Hi,> > > > >> > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that I am> > > > > missing, but does armor stack?> > > > >> > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, assuming that> > > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my head and> > > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in changeling.> > > > >> > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) +> > > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) +> > > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL)> > > > >> > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor> > > > >> > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do any damage> > > > > at all?> > > > >> > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack dice pool,> > > > > am I wrong?> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Thomas Whitney> > > > > AU2001100359> > > > > _______________________________________________> > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > --> > > > Jeremiah Spaulding> > > > US2002023190> > > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I> > > > _______________________________________________> > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > > --> > > ------> > > David S> > > _______________________________________________> > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> > >> > _______________________________________________> > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> >> > > > -- > ------> David S> _______________________________________________> Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/ecfbd27a/attachment.html From delwin at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 12:40:24 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Sun Mar 2 12:41:35 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20803020940x6f8c0547qfd138427aaff7fc2@mail.gmail.com> Find me a definition of 'trait' in WW material. Either I'm blind (possible, it's early) or it's not there. David Sauter US2002021140 On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:33 AM, James Leavings wrote: > > The current addendum released on Jan 8, 2008 says this about the MST FAQ > > "The MST's office maintains a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) > (camarilla.white-wolf.com/rules) document built in response to questions > asked on the cam-rules email list. The FAQ contains explanations of > misunderstood mechanics, not official rules changes." > > The FAQ may be out of date, but it is still explicitly in use. Any STs > ignoring it, especially if it causes a character death, should be > investigated. > > Besides that, could we get a page number on whatever your using to refer to > armor as a trait? I had a look and couldn't find it. > > James Leavings > us2005106684 > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 10:27:16 -0700 > > From: delwin@gmail.com > > To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... > > > > > Equipment bonuses are traits of items, but they're still traits. > > > > Secondly - the MST FAQ is out of date and unenforcable and has been > > overruled by local ST's more than once resulting in the death of > > characters. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Joe Carron wrote: > > > Armour does stack, this is even clarified by the MST FAQ. Armour is > > > not a trait it is an equipment bonus. So you can wear or have > > > multiple types of armour and get bonus from them all, unless of the > > > course the armour says specifically it does not stack. > > > > > > Joe Carron > > > US2002021243 > > > NW ARST Settings > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 3/2/08, David Sauter wrote: > > > > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait > > > > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all. > > > > > > > > David Sauter > > > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding > wrote: > > > > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones > > > > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court > > > > > advantage does not say anything. > > > > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool > of > > > > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and > > > > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card > > > > > is 7. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that > I am > > > > > > missing, but does armor stack? > > > > > > > > > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling, > assuming that > > > > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my > head and > > > > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in > changeling. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) + > > > > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) + > > > > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL) > > > > > > > > > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do > any damage > > > > > > at all? > > > > > > > > > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack > dice pool, > > > > > > am I wrong? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > > Thomas Whitney > > > > > > AU2001100359 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Jeremiah Spaulding > > > > > US2002023190 > > > > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ------ > > > > David S > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------ > > David S > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > ________________________________ > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now! > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- ------ David S From argynt at hotmail.com Sun Mar 2 12:54:22 2008 From: argynt at hotmail.com (James Leavings) Date: Sun Mar 2 12:55:32 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803020940x6f8c0547qfd138427aaff7fc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020940x6f8c0547qfd138427aaff7fc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The fact that it's not defined (if it's not, my not finding it either does not prove it's *not* somewhere) does not mean you can assign things to be traits. Even without a definition in the book, I think we could examine the things listed as Traits for common things. Such as, I believe, all things listed as traits ADD to pools. None subtract from them. The book calls some things traits, and doesn't call other traits. As many mistakes as are made in WW books, we still have only what's written to go on. We can't assume, or state with certainty, that things not listed as traits are traits. James Leavingsus2005106684 > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 10:40:24 -0700> From: delwin@gmail.com> To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling...> > Find me a definition of 'trait' in WW material. Either I'm blind> (possible, it's early) or it's not there.> > David Sauter> US2002021140> > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:33 AM, James Leavings wrote:> >> > The current addendum released on Jan 8, 2008 says this about the MST FAQ> >> > "The MST's office maintains a Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)> > (camarilla.white-wolf.com/rules) document built in response to questions> > asked on the cam-rules email list. The FAQ contains explanations of> > misunderstood mechanics, not official rules changes."> >> > The FAQ may be out of date, but it is still explicitly in use. Any STs> > ignoring it, especially if it causes a character death, should be> > investigated.> >> > Besides that, could we get a page number on whatever your using to refer to> > armor as a trait? I had a look and couldn't find it.> >> > James Leavings> > us2005106684> >> >> >> >> > ________________________________> >> > > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 10:27:16 -0700> > > From: delwin@gmail.com> > > To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> >> > > Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling...> > >> >> > > Equipment bonuses are traits of items, but they're still traits.> > >> > > Secondly - the MST FAQ is out of date and unenforcable and has been> > > overruled by local ST's more than once resulting in the death of> > > characters.> > >> > > David Sauter> > > US2002021140> > >> > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Joe Carron wrote:> > > > Armour does stack, this is even clarified by the MST FAQ. Armour is> > > > not a trait it is an equipment bonus. So you can wear or have> > > > multiple types of armour and get bonus from them all, unless of the> > > > course the armour says specifically it does not stack.> > > >> > > > Joe Carron> > > > US2002021243> > > > NW ARST Settings> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > On 3/2/08, David Sauter wrote:> > > > > Armor is a Trait. By the US Addendum you only get the highest trait> > > > > modifier, so no Armor does not stack at all.> > > > >> > > > > David Sauter> > > > > US2002021140> > > > >> > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 9:40 AM, Jerry Spaulding> > wrote:> > > > > > Armor does stack, unless it says it does not. Note the Stonebones> > > > > > power says it doesn't stack with mundane armor, but the summer court> > > > > > advantage does not say anything.> > > > > > As for how armor works, it is applied as a penalty to the draw pool> > of> > > > > > the attacker. So if their Str + Brawl is 14, and your armor is 5 and> > > > > > defense is 2, then their resulting draw pool before they draw a card> > > > > > is 7.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Thomas Whitney> > wrote:> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Hi,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Sorry to ask this, but I am assuming there is a simple answer that> > I am> > > > > > > missing, but does armor stack?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Primarily I am looking at how damage is reduced in Changeling,> > assuming that> > > > > > > things do stack. Below is a combination that I am going over in my> > head and> > > > > > > works upon the idea that armor of differing types do stack in> > changeling.> > > > > > >> > > > > > > 1. Hedgespun Raiment level 3 (p203 CtL) +> > > > > > > 2. Summer Court Mantle 3 (p52 CtL) +> > > > > > > 3. Red Rage of Terrible Revenge (p146 CtL)> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Armor totals: Raiment 3 + Summer Mantle 1 + RRoTR 1 = 5 armor> > > > > > >> > > > > > > If this was to subtract from damage, how would one expect to do> > any damage> > > > > > > at all?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > One last question, I thought Armor subtracted from enemy attack> > dice pool,> > > > > > > am I wrong?> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Regards,> > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thomas Whitney> > > > > > > AU2001100359> > > > > > > _______________________________________________> > > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > > > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > --> > > > > > Jeremiah Spaulding> > > > > > US2002023190> > > > > > VST:Requiem ME-009-I> > > > > > _______________________________________________> > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > --> > > > > ------> > > > > David S> > > > > _______________________________________________> > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________> > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > > --> > > ------> > > David S> > > _______________________________________________> > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> >> >> > ________________________________> > Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it now!> > _______________________________________________> > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> >> >> > > > -- > ------> David S> _______________________________________________> Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy _________________________________________________________________ Need to know the score, the latest news, or you need your Hotmail?-get your "fix". http://www.msnmobilefix.com/Default.aspx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/a1bc2dd6/attachment-0001.html From delwin at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:03:48 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:04:58 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not official rules changes." vs. US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' a single trait at a time. and to do my own research: MET p 22 TRAITS Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate capabilities, trained skills and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These traits are fully described in subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important: Attributes and Skills. ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and Skills. (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of damage inflicted against a target's Health trait. ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a trait, so traits are more than just things you buy with XP. (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's Attributes: Defense... ** Defense is likewise a trait. (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness ** Durability is a trait of an item. (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a Willpower point or a measurement of damage or Health. ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'. (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, determined by adding Durability and Size. ** same... (211) Damage Limit Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute or Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if any) to determine the damage limit for the attack. ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either way a weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) "Each success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits." OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait' We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron Skin. "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks only." Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to the theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'. David Sauter US2002021140 From uradunce at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:06:32 2008 From: uradunce at gmail.com (Andrew J. Trujillo) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:07:43 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c19e06c0803021006v7159b03y8759e6b2f5836930@mail.gmail.com> Though in application I would say that Defense is a "Trait" and that Armor "buffs" it. Wouldn't' you? On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:03 AM, David Sauter wrote: > "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not > official rules changes." > > vs. > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' > a single trait at a time. > > and to do my own research: > > MET p 22 > TRAITS > Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate > capabilities, trained skills > and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These traits > are fully described in > subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important: > Attributes and Skills. > > ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and Skills. > > (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of > damage inflicted > against a target's Health trait. > > ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a trait, > so traits are more than just things you buy with XP. > > (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's > Attributes: Defense... > > ** Defense is likewise a trait. > > (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness > > ** Durability is a trait of an item. > > (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a > Willpower point or a > measurement of damage or Health. > > ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'. > > (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, determined > by adding Durability > and Size. > > ** same... > > (211) Damage Limit > Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute or > Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if > any) to determine the damage limit for the attack. > > ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either way a > weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) "Each > success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage > inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits." > > OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait' > > We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron Skin. > "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks only." > Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to the > theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Andrew J. Trujillo US2002076343 AMST: Dark Places on the Map A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! VST: Awakening Hawaii -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/a67603c1/attachment.html From delwin at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:10:22 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:11:33 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <7c19e06c0803021006v7159b03y8759e6b2f5836930@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> <7c19e06c0803021006v7159b03y8759e6b2f5836930@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20803021010ge6cfa62t6147b7ecb5b46db7@mail.gmail.com> No because Armor is an offensive penalty that applies in different circumstances than Defense. For example look into Firearms and Environmental Fire. David Sauter US2002021140 On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrew J. Trujillo wrote: > Though in application I would say that Defense is a "Trait" and that Armor > "buffs" it. Wouldn't' you? > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:03 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not > > official rules changes." > > > > vs. > > > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' > > a single trait at a time. > > > > and to do my own research: > > > > MET p 22 > > TRAITS > > Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate > > capabilities, trained skills > > and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These traits > > are fully described in > > subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important: > > Attributes and Skills. > > > > ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and Skills. > > > > (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of > > damage inflicted > > against a target's Health trait. > > > > ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a trait, > > so traits are more than just things you buy with XP. > > > > (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's > > Attributes: Defense... > > > > ** Defense is likewise a trait. > > > > (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness > > > > ** Durability is a trait of an item. > > > > (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a > > Willpower point or a > > measurement of damage or Health. > > > > ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'. > > > > (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, determined > > by adding Durability > > and Size. > > > > ** same... > > > > (211) Damage Limit > > Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute or > > Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if > > any) to determine the damage limit for the attack. > > > > ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either way a > > weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) "Each > > success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage > > inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits." > > > > OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait' > > > > We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron Skin. > > "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks only." > > Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to the > > theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > -- > > Andrew J. Trujillo > US2002076343 > AMST: Dark Places on the Map > A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! > VST: Awakening Hawaii > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- ------ David S From uradunce at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:25:58 2008 From: uradunce at gmail.com (Andrew J. Trujillo) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:27:09 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803021010ge6cfa62t6147b7ecb5b46db7@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> <7c19e06c0803021006v7159b03y8759e6b2f5836930@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021010ge6cfa62t6147b7ecb5b46db7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c19e06c0803021025i5c553ab4j507e37d4dad5c037@mail.gmail.com> So you don't agree that Armor acts as a "modifier" to Defense? This would be a positive modifier or also commonly called a "buff". Though in certain circumstances this buff/modifier could be ineffective. That's how it's working in my line of thought. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:10 AM, David Sauter wrote: > No because Armor is an offensive penalty that applies in different > circumstances than Defense. For example look into Firearms and > Environmental Fire. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrew J. Trujillo > wrote: > > Though in application I would say that Defense is a "Trait" and that > Armor > > "buffs" it. Wouldn't' you? > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:03 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not > > > official rules changes." > > > > > > vs. > > > > > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' > > > a single trait at a time. > > > > > > and to do my own research: > > > > > > MET p 22 > > > TRAITS > > > Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate > > > capabilities, trained skills > > > and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These traits > > > are fully described in > > > subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important: > > > Attributes and Skills. > > > > > > ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and Skills. > > > > > > (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of > > > damage inflicted > > > against a target's Health trait. > > > > > > ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a trait, > > > so traits are more than just things you buy with XP. > > > > > > (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's > > > Attributes: Defense... > > > > > > ** Defense is likewise a trait. > > > > > > (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness > > > > > > ** Durability is a trait of an item. > > > > > > (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a > > > Willpower point or a > > > measurement of damage or Health. > > > > > > ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'. > > > > > > (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, determined > > > by adding Durability > > > and Size. > > > > > > ** same... > > > > > > (211) Damage Limit > > > Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute or > > > Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if > > > any) to determine the damage limit for the attack. > > > > > > ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either way a > > > weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) "Each > > > success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage > > > inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits." > > > > > > OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait' > > > > > > We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron Skin. > > > "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks only." > > > Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to the > > > theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'. > > > > > > David Sauter > > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Andrew J. Trujillo > > US2002076343 > > AMST: Dark Places on the Map > > A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! > > VST: Awakening Hawaii > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Andrew J. Trujillo US2002076343 AMST: Dark Places on the Map A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! VST: Awakening Hawaii -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/dce8bfc1/attachment-0001.html From argynt at hotmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:27:58 2008 From: argynt at hotmail.com (James Leavings) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:29:09 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hmm. I agree the last listing refers to armor as a trait, in the TT setting. However, every MET listing that discusses traits does so referring **only** to things that add to pools, add to how many levels of damage you can take, add to how hard it is to hit you in the first place, add to your resistance. Traits are things that are a part of you, your body, your learning, or in the case of an item it's physical form. Now, the fact that the penalty applied to a pool by armor is completely unlike anything specifically referred to as a trait in MET, doesn't automatically mean it isn't. WW has done lots of stuff where there's a perfectly good pattern to what they've done, right up until there isn't. But there's something else to consider here. WW didn't write that line from the US addendum. If the two interact poorly (and I personally think that line from the US addendum is totally unnecessary, but there it is anyway) the fault is more probably on the US addendum for not taking things like this into account. What I mean is that some armor types seem to be meant to stack. I say this because some armor types specifically say they do not stack, or say what they do not stack with. Others, have no such mention. So it *seems* intended that some stack and some do not. And even if the writers of the US addendum DID take into account armor when placing that line in there, it says "US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' a single trait at a time.". Which would allow at least one mundane source, as well as one Power to do so. But all that said, I do not believe that this entry into the US addendum, weather I like it or not, is intended to encompass armor. That, however, is my opinion. What I believe is fair to say as fact is that nothing in the MET system, from David's research, refers to armor as a trait, with possibly as few as one such reference in TT. I am going to speculate that the best way to look at this is the armor *rating* of an item would be one of that item's traits. So, only one power used to buff the armor rating of an item would apply under that rule. However, the penalty applied to an attacker's pool is, while derived from that rating, is not the rating. In the same way that the bonus to a pool for spending a willpower is not the same as the willpower spent. In the same way that an items durability is a trait, but the amount of incoming damage is blocks is not a trait. In short, I believe Traits are facts about a character, or in the case of an item facts about an item, and NOT the interaction of those facts with others. James Leavings us2005106608 > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 11:03:48 -0700> From: delwin@gmail.com> To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling...> > "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not> official rules changes."> > vs.> > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff'> a single trait at a time.> > and to do my own research:> > MET p 22> TRAITS> Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate> capabilities, trained skills> and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These traits> are fully described in> subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important:> Attributes and Skills.> > ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and Skills.> > (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of> damage inflicted> against a target's Health trait.> > ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a trait,> so traits are more than just things you buy with XP.> > (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's> Attributes: Defense...> > ** Defense is likewise a trait.> > (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness> > ** Durability is a trait of an item.> > (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a> Willpower point or a> measurement of damage or Health.> > ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'.> > (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, determined> by adding Durability> and Size.> > ** same...> > (211) Damage Limit> Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute or> Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if> any) to determine the damage limit for the attack.> > ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either way a> weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) "Each> success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage> inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits."> > OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait'> > We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron Skin.> "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks only."> Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to the> theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'.> > David Sauter> US2002021140> _______________________________________________> Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/c3d1201a/attachment.html From delwin at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:28:57 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:30:08 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <7c19e06c0803021025i5c553ab4j507e37d4dad5c037@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> <7c19e06c0803021006v7159b03y8759e6b2f5836930@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021010ge6cfa62t6147b7ecb5b46db7@mail.gmail.com> <7c19e06c0803021025i5c553ab4j507e37d4dad5c037@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20803021028v731fe009w276bbe48980a25a3@mail.gmail.com> If the modifier were effective only when the base were effective then it could be considered that. However Armor is effecive in ways that Defense is not (Fire) and more importantly it's effective in circumstances that Defense is not (Firearms). So no, it's a different trait entirely. David Sauter US2002021140 On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:25 AM, Andrew J. Trujillo wrote: > So you don't agree that Armor acts as a "modifier" to Defense? > > This would be a positive modifier or also commonly called a "buff". Though > in certain circumstances this buff/modifier could be ineffective. That's how > it's working in my line of thought. > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:10 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > No because Armor is an offensive penalty that applies in different > > circumstances than Defense. For example look into Firearms and > > Environmental Fire. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrew J. Trujillo > wrote: > > > Though in application I would say that Defense is a "Trait" and that > Armor > > > "buffs" it. Wouldn't' you? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:03 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not > > > > official rules changes." > > > > > > > > vs. > > > > > > > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' > > > > a single trait at a time. > > > > > > > > and to do my own research: > > > > > > > > MET p 22 > > > > TRAITS > > > > Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate > > > > capabilities, trained skills > > > > and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These traits > > > > are fully described in > > > > subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important: > > > > Attributes and Skills. > > > > > > > > ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and Skills. > > > > > > > > (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of > > > > damage inflicted > > > > against a target's Health trait. > > > > > > > > ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a trait, > > > > so traits are more than just things you buy with XP. > > > > > > > > (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's > > > > Attributes: Defense... > > > > > > > > ** Defense is likewise a trait. > > > > > > > > (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness > > > > > > > > ** Durability is a trait of an item. > > > > > > > > (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a > > > > Willpower point or a > > > > measurement of damage or Health. > > > > > > > > ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'. > > > > > > > > (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, determined > > > > by adding Durability > > > > and Size. > > > > > > > > ** same... > > > > > > > > (211) Damage Limit > > > > Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute or > > > > Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if > > > > any) to determine the damage limit for the attack. > > > > > > > > ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either way a > > > > weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) "Each > > > > success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage > > > > inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits." > > > > > > > > OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait' > > > > > > > > We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron Skin. > > > > "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks only." > > > > Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to the > > > > theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'. > > > > > > > > David Sauter > > > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Andrew J. Trujillo > > > US2002076343 > > > AMST: Dark Places on the Map > > > A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! > > > VST: Awakening Hawaii > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------ > > David S > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > -- > Andrew J. Trujillo > US2002076343 > AMST: Dark Places on the Map > A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! > VST: Awakening Hawaii > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- ------ David S From argynt at hotmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:35:35 2008 From: argynt at hotmail.com (James Leavings) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:36:45 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <7c19e06c0803021025i5c553ab4j507e37d4dad5c037@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> <7c19e06c0803021006v7159b03y8759e6b2f5836930@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021010ge6cfa62t6147b7ecb5b46db7@mail.gmail.com> <7c19e06c0803021025i5c553ab4j507e37d4dad5c037@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Armor and Defense are two different things. Just because they seem similar, and most people lump them together doesn't make them the same. Armor is armor, doing what it does independently of you getting defense or not. Defense is it's own thing. Armor is it's own thing. In fact, in the listings for Defense and Armor in the MET WoD book, neither ever refers to the other at all. James Leavings us2005106608 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 08:25:58 -1000From: uradunce@gmail.comTo: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.comSubject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling...So you don't agree that Armor acts as a "modifier" to Defense?This would be a positive modifier or also commonly called a "buff". Though in certain circumstances this buff/modifier could be ineffective. That's how it's working in my line of thought. On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:10 AM, David Sauter wrote: No because Armor is an offensive penalty that applies in differentcircumstances than Defense. For example look into Firearms andEnvironmental Fire.David SauterUS2002021140 On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrew J. Trujillo wrote:> Though in application I would say that Defense is a "Trait" and that Armor> "buffs" it. Wouldn't' you?>>>> On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:03 AM, David Sauter wrote:>> >> >> >> >> > "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not> > official rules changes."> >> > vs.> >> > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff'> > a single trait at a time.> >> > and to do my own research:> >> > MET p 22> > TRAITS> > Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate> > capabilities, trained skills> > and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These traits> > are fully described in> > subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important:> > Attributes and Skills.> >> > ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and Skills.> >> > (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of> > damage inflicted> > against a target's Health trait.> >> > ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a trait,> > so traits are more than just things you buy with XP.> >> > (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's> > Attributes: Defense...> >> > ** Defense is likewise a trait.> >> > (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness> >> > ** Durability is a trait of an item.> >> > (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a> > Willpower point or a> > measurement of damage or Health.> >> > ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'.> >> > (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, determined> > by adding Durability> > and Size.> >> > ** same...> >> > (211) Damage Limit> > Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute or> > Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if> > any) to determine the damage limit for the attack.> >> > ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either way a> > weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) "Each> > success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage> > inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits."> >> > OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait'> >> > We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron Skin.> > "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks only."> > Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to the> > theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'.> >> > David Sauter> > US2002021140> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy> >>>>> -->> Andrew J. Trujillo> US2002076343> AMST: Dark Places on the Map> A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!!> VST: Awakening Hawaii> _______________________________________________> Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy>>--------David S _______________________________________________Cam-rules-advocacy mailing listCam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.comhttp://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy-- Andrew J. TrujilloUS2002076343AMST: Dark Places on the MapA far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!!VST: Awakening Hawaii _________________________________________________________________ Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! http://biggestloser.msn.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/3519c67a/attachment-0001.html From delwin at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:35:48 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:36:59 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20803021035y1017e940h98487dd83d5f356c@mail.gmail.com> OK, different tact then :) Please go read MET 225. Now tell me where any where in the second on Armor it even implies indirectly that you can benefit from more than one 'armor' at a time. I will note that the entire section is singular - Armor is a single thing. Now some powers specifically state they stack and you can end up with one armor becoming a bonus to another armor - but that's specific to a power allowing it to become an 'Armor bonus' instead of an 'Armor'. So, I state again. Armor is singular. You can only benefit from a single Armor unless a power specifically states it stacks with other Armors. David Sauter US2002021140 On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:27 AM, James Leavings wrote: > > Hmm. I agree the last listing refers to armor as a trait, in the TT setting. > However, every MET listing that discusses traits does so referring **only** > to things that add to pools, add to how many levels of damage you can take, > add to how hard it is to hit you in the first place, add to your resistance. > Traits are things that are a part of you, your body, your learning, or in > the case of an item it's physical form. Now, the fact that the penalty > applied to a pool by armor is completely unlike anything specifically > referred to as a trait in MET, doesn't automatically mean it isn't. WW has > done lots of stuff where there's a perfectly good pattern to what they've > done, right up until there isn't. > > But there's something else to consider here. WW didn't write that line from > the US addendum. If the two interact poorly (and I personally think that > line from the US addendum is totally unnecessary, but there it is anyway) > the fault is more probably on the US addendum for not taking things like > this into account. What I mean is that some armor types seem to be meant to > stack. I say this because some armor types specifically say they do not > stack, or say what they do not stack with. Others, have no such mention. So > it *seems* intended that some stack and some do not. > > And even if the writers of the US addendum DID take into account armor when > placing that line in there, it says "US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): > Only a single power may 'buff' a single trait at a time.". Which would allow > at least one mundane source, as well as one Power to do so. > > But all that said, I do not believe that this entry into the US addendum, > weather I like it or not, is intended to encompass armor. That, however, is > my opinion. What I believe is fair to say as fact is that nothing in the MET > system, from David's research, refers to armor as a trait, with possibly as > few as one such reference in TT. > > I am going to speculate that the best way to look at this is the armor > *rating* of an item would be one of that item's traits. So, only one power > used to buff the armor rating of an item would apply under that rule. > However, the penalty applied to an attacker's pool is, while derived from > that rating, is not the rating. In the same way that the bonus to a pool for > spending a willpower is not the same as the willpower spent. In the same way > that an items durability is a trait, but the amount of incoming damage is > blocks is not a trait. > > In short, I believe Traits are facts about a character, or in the case of > an item facts about an item, and NOT the interaction of those facts with > others. > > James Leavings > us2005106608 > > > > > ________________________________ > > > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 11:03:48 -0700 > > > From: delwin@gmail.com > > To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... > > > > > "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not > > official rules changes." > > > > vs. > > > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' > > a single trait at a time. > > > > and to do my own research: > > > > MET p 22 > > TRAITS > > Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate > > capabilities, trained skills > > and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These traits > > are fully described in > > subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important: > > Attributes and Skills. > > > > ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and Skills. > > > > (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of > > damage inflicted > > against a target's Health trait. > > > > ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a trait, > > so traits are more than just things you buy with XP. > > > > (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's > > Attributes: Defense... > > > > ** Defense is likewise a trait. > > > > (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness > > > > ** Durability is a trait of an item. > > > > (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a > > Willpower point or a > > measurement of damage or Health. > > > > ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'. > > > > (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, determined > > by adding Durability > > and Size. > > > > ** same... > > > > (211) Damage Limit > > Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute or > > Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if > > any) to determine the damage limit for the attack. > > > > ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either way a > > weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) "Each > > success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage > > inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits." > > > > OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait' > > > > We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron Skin. > > "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks only." > > Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to the > > theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > ________________________________ > Shed those extra pounds with MSN and The Biggest Loser! Learn more. > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- ------ David S From uradunce at gmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:42:05 2008 From: uradunce at gmail.com (Andrew J. Trujillo) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:43:24 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803021028v731fe009w276bbe48980a25a3@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> <7c19e06c0803021006v7159b03y8759e6b2f5836930@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021010ge6cfa62t6147b7ecb5b46db7@mail.gmail.com> <7c19e06c0803021025i5c553ab4j507e37d4dad5c037@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021028v731fe009w276bbe48980a25a3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7c19e06c0803021042oc99d163v8aa5d29af25d3fa3@mail.gmail.com> To understand your interpretation of Defense and Armor. Both are separate traits. So they would be two separate pools in reference of stacking and modification. In that case against an attack it would be: Defense = Lowest applicable unmodified attribute + applicable merit Armor = Unmodified equipment So both would have applicable "buffs" limited by stacking rules to +15. In addition to the to hit penalty imposed by Celerity for instance in Vampire. Do I understand correctly? On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:28 AM, David Sauter wrote: > If the modifier were effective only when the base were effective then > it could be considered that. > > However Armor is effecive in ways that Defense is not (Fire) and more > importantly it's effective in circumstances that Defense is not > (Firearms). > > So no, it's a different trait entirely. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:25 AM, Andrew J. Trujillo > wrote: > > So you don't agree that Armor acts as a "modifier" to Defense? > > > > This would be a positive modifier or also commonly called a "buff". > Though > > in certain circumstances this buff/modifier could be ineffective. That's > how > > it's working in my line of thought. > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:10 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > > No because Armor is an offensive penalty that applies in different > > > circumstances than Defense. For example look into Firearms and > > > Environmental Fire. > > > > > > David Sauter > > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Andrew J. Trujillo < > uradunce@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > Though in application I would say that Defense is a "Trait" and that > > Armor > > > > "buffs" it. Wouldn't' you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 8:03 AM, David Sauter > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "The FAQ contains explanations of misunderstood mechanics, not > > > > > official rules changes." > > > > > > > > > > vs. > > > > > > > > > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may > 'buff' > > > > > a single trait at a time. > > > > > > > > > > and to do my own research: > > > > > > > > > > MET p 22 > > > > > TRAITS > > > > > Characters possess a variety of traits that describe their innate > > > > > capabilities, trained skills > > > > > and even how many wounds they can suffer before dying. These > traits > > > > > are fully described in > > > > > subsequent chapters. Two types of traits are especially important: > > > > > Attributes and Skills. > > > > > > > > > > ** This says that there are more 'traits' than Attributes and > Skills. > > > > > > > > > > (25) Each success gained on your attack draw represents a point of > > > > > damage inflicted > > > > > against a target's Health trait. > > > > > > > > > > ** Health, a computed stat (not bought directly with XP) is a > trait, > > > > > so traits are more than just things you buy with XP. > > > > > > > > > > (30) 6. Determine advantages, traits derived from your character's > > > > > Attributes: Defense... > > > > > > > > > > ** Defense is likewise a trait. > > > > > > > > > > (39) Durability: A trait representing an object's hardness > > > > > > > > > > ** Durability is a trait of an item. > > > > > > > > > > (40) point: A trait expended to gain certain effects, such as a > > > > > Willpower point or a > > > > > measurement of damage or Health. > > > > > > > > > > ** willpower points etc. are all 'traits'. > > > > > > > > > > (41) Structure: A trait representing an object's integrity, > determined > > > > > by adding Durability > > > > > and Size. > > > > > > > > > > ** same... > > > > > > > > > > (211) Damage Limit > > > > > Use the highest trait available out of the relevant base Attribute > or > > > > > Skill applied, or based on the weapon's damage rating (if > > > > > any) to determine the damage limit for the attack. > > > > > > > > > > ** Grammar is a little garbled, but that's par for MET. Either > way a > > > > > weapon's damage rating is a trait. This is backed up by (212) > "Each > > > > > success on the attack draw equates to a Health point of damage > > > > > inflicted to a limit based on the attacker's traits." > > > > > > > > > > OK so all these are incidental so I did a search for 'Armor trait' > > > > > > > > > > We find it in the TT WoD book on page 111 under Kung Fu - Iron > Skin. > > > > > "He has an effective armor trait of 1 against bashing attacks > only." > > > > > Sure, this isn't sanctioned material but it does lend credence to > the > > > > > theory that 'everything on your sheet is a trait'. > > > > > > > > > > David Sauter > > > > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Andrew J. Trujillo > > > > US2002076343 > > > > AMST: Dark Places on the Map > > > > A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! > > > > VST: Awakening Hawaii > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ------ > > > David S > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Andrew J. Trujillo > > US2002076343 > > AMST: Dark Places on the Map > > A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! > > VST: Awakening Hawaii > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Andrew J. Trujillo US2002076343 AMST: Dark Places on the Map A far SOUTH WEST as it gets!!! VST: Awakening Hawaii -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080302/cd1e8f26/attachment.html From argynt at hotmail.com Sun Mar 2 13:44:35 2008 From: argynt at hotmail.com (James Leavings) Date: Sun Mar 2 13:45:45 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling... In-Reply-To: <945cfca20803021035y1017e940h98487dd83d5f356c@mail.gmail.com> References: <945cfca20803020842u17201466t1eebeceb79f97de1@mail.gmail.com> <3e222f9c0803020912p501d88f7k3589c4a035f3fb61@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803020927o554c8a96xcf67307499d51e5a@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021003o2b31bda3v766414057bb8241e@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20803021035y1017e940h98487dd83d5f356c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ok, then we've reached a point where I don't think we even disagree. I would not contend that you could wear 3 mundane armors, getting the benefit from each. However, I would contend that any powers that allow stacking with other armor would do so. The powers set their own limitations, and many forbid stacking. James Leavings us2005106608 > Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 11:35:48 -0700> From: delwin@gmail.com> To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stacking armor in changeling...> > OK, different tact then :)> > Please go read MET 225.> > Now tell me where any where in the second on Armor it even implies> indirectly that you can benefit from more than one 'armor' at a time.> I will note that the entire section is singular - Armor is a single> thing.> > Now some powers specifically state they stack and you can end up with> one armor becoming a bonus to another armor - but that's specific to a> power allowing it to become an 'Armor bonus' instead of an 'Armor'.> > So, I state again. Armor is singular. You can only benefit from a> single Armor unless a power specifically states it stacks with other> Armors.> > David Sauter> US2002021140> > On Sun, Mar 2, 2008 at 11:27 AM, James Leavings wrote:> >> > Hmm. I agree the last listing refers to armor as a trait, in the TT setting.> > However, every MET listing that discusses traits does so referring **only**> > to things that add to pools, add to how many levels of damage you can take,> > add to how hard it is to hit you in the first place, add to your resistance.> > Traits are things that are a part of you, your body, your learning, or in> > the case of an item it's physical form. Now, the fact that the penalty> > applied to a pool by armor is complete