From jennnger at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 00:12:58 2008 From: jennnger at gmail.com (Jennger) Date: Fri Feb 1 00:13:36 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Link to animals... In-Reply-To: References: <0618302216BC4C23A69A7AC1428DE4FF@ThomasPC> Message-ID: It's pretty new so don't feel too bad. ;) I've had to link it to a few friends personally. - Jenn Stoltz US2007019300 On Jan 31, 2008 8:52 PM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > Hi, > > Thanks again for the quick response.... makes me feel silly. :S > > > Thomas Whitney > AU2001100359 > > From: "Robert Paul" > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 3:17 PM > Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Link to animals... > > > > > http://camarilla.white-wolf.com/MST/images/stories/camarilla_addendum_appendix4_0108.html > > > > Rob Paul > > US2002023582 > > > > On Jan 31, 2008 10:44 PM, Thomas Whitney > wrote: > >> > >> Hi People, > >> > >> I am trying to find a link to a list of animals/creatures (the normal > >> ones > >> anyway). > >> > >> Basically, the ones in the base book are a little limiting, and I am > >> tired > >> of turning into a dog, cat, horse and bird. Something that officially > >> sanctioned would be good, otherwise if nothing else. > >> > >> Thanks for any help. > >> > >> Thomas Whitney > >> AU2001100359 > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080131/e65eee21/attachment-0001.html From jonathan.argles at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 02:39:04 2008 From: jonathan.argles at gmail.com (Jonathan Argles) Date: Fri Feb 1 02:39:45 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Link to animals... In-Reply-To: <0618302216BC4C23A69A7AC1428DE4FF@ThomasPC> References: <0618302216BC4C23A69A7AC1428DE4FF@ThomasPC> Message-ID: <2d014aea0801312339s449bc581pca95d1d12fe68d4@mail.gmail.com> Of course, it depends on which venue. In Lost and Awakening, the character just gets the physical attributes, species factor and any special abilities/attacks. The other factors are for pure animals Requiem has its own guide where you buy aspects to make your own predator, but as you've included a horse, I'm guessing that we're not talking about that. Jon A UK0006964 On Feb 1, 2008 4:44 AM, Thomas Whitney wrote: > > > Hi People, > > I am trying to find a link to a list of animals/creatures (the normal ones > anyway). > > Basically, the ones in the base book are a little limiting, and I am tired > of turning into a dog, cat, horse and bird. Something that officially > sanctioned would be good, otherwise if nothing else. > > Thanks for any help. > > Thomas Whitney > AU2001100359 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > From jagaskins at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 08:54:57 2008 From: jagaskins at gmail.com (Justin Gaskins) Date: Fri Feb 1 08:55:36 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Link to animals... Message-ID: <13ba40960802010554w32da5d03if2004d7b8881a6da@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/08, "Thomas Whitney" wrote: > I am trying to find a link to a list of animals/creatures (the normal ones anyway). > > Basically, the ones in the base book are a little limiting, and I am tired of turning into a dog, cat, horse and bird. Something that officially sanctioned would be good, otherwise if nothing else. Check out Appendix 4 of the Global Addendum. It is at camarilla.white-wolf.com/rules -- Justin Gaskins US2004092012 DST - Dark Aria OH-017-D aMST - Rules * I'm really easy to get along with once you people learn to see it my way. * It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off. From swiftone at swiftone.org Fri Feb 1 10:44:41 2008 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Ritter) Date: Fri Feb 1 10:45:20 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Quickie about rotes... In-Reply-To: <46C747BAFA034F24B4815A2C8375DCBA@ThomasPC> References: <46C747BAFA034F24B4815A2C8375DCBA@ThomasPC> Message-ID: <6a6bb9960802010744v5115dd3bi75842f868395b9c5@mail.gmail.com> On 1/31/08, Thomas Whitney wrote: > I have a quick question about rotes and improvised magic. If a person casts > a spell outside his or her primary Arcanum: > > 1. and it is a rote -> 0 mana cost (unless otherwise stated)? > 2. and it is improvised -> 1 mana cost (plus other stated)? Correct (as already mentioned) I'll also add that non-ruling, non-rote spells take extra mana to ritually cast. That's a hidden little rule change that will encourage more rotes, I expect. -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne US2003011110 swiftone@swiftone.org From djayeros at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 14:20:53 2008 From: djayeros at gmail.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Fri Feb 1 14:21:31 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Hello I am sending this out here because i am not getting much help in the other lists Message-ID: <651faac00802011120n18adc650sc6b0e2b29de94c0@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, this is my first post ever on one of these lists please forgive me. If I am putting this question on the wrong list. I have not yet seen this happen in a live Cam game but I have run into it while running my own table top Lost game. So I figure it will come up in the Cam if it already hasn't Armor of the elements furry, the 2 dot elemental contract says, "The character surrounds herself with a damaging manifestation of the element. The character does half of her weird (round up) lethal damage by touch, and anyone or any object that strikes her suffers the same damage." No he is the situations I need clarifications on. First if a person initiates a grapple attack and grapples and opponent, since he is now touching his opponent, does he automatically do the lethal damage from his "armor of the elements furry" on his turn when he attacked? That's the first question. Now let's take that same fight as above. The person with the damage shield has the opponent grappled. Once some on is in a grapple they have two options combat wise. One they try to reverse that grapple and be the attacker. Second they can try to break the grapple and then get away form the grappler. I would think at this time in either of these cases, this is a touching attack, against the grappler with "Armor of the elements furry" up and running. So the grappler's opponent would once again take damage. Ok now here is my last question on the subject. Now let's say both of the opponents have "Armor of the elements" up and running. The way I read the rule is. When the first grappler attacks the other he does his damage but since the other guy has Armor of elements furry up to. The Attacker will take damage. Now on the defenders turn whether he decides to break the grapple or reverse the grapple they would both take damage again. Ok that's how I think the rules read. Any other interpretations or any support for my interpretations of the rules. AND if this has already been brought up can someone please tell me the ruling by the MST Thanks so much -- Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) OOC Tim Harrison US2005106799 Oklahoma SC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080201/b83f00b7/attachment.html From djayeros at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 14:25:56 2008 From: djayeros at gmail.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Fri Feb 1 14:26:34 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] "Armor of the elements furry" question Message-ID: <651faac00802011125n1b0aff0focca2f533c6cc75d@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, this is my first post ever on one of these lists please forgive me. If I am putting this question on the wrong list. I have not yet seen this happen in a live Cam game but I have run into it while running my own table top Lost game. So I figure it will come up in the Cam if it already hasn't Armor of the elements furry, the 2 dot elemental contract says, "The character surrounds herself with a damaging manifestation of the element. The character does half of her weird (round up) lethal damage by touch, and anyone or any object that strikes her suffers the same damage." Now here is the situations I need clarifications on. First if a person initiates a grapple attack and grapples and opponent, since he is now touching his opponent, does he automatically do the lethal damage from his "armor of the elements furry" on his turn when he attacked? That's the first question. Now let's take that same fight as above. The person with the damage shield has the opponent grappled. Once some on is in a grapple they have two options combat wise. One they try to reverse that grapple and be the attacker. Second they can try to break the grapple and then get away form the grappler. I would think at this time in either of these cases, this is a touching attack, against the grappler with "Armor of the elements furry" up and running. So the grappler's opponent would once again take damage. Ok now here is my last question on the subject. Now let's say both of the opponents have "Armor of the elements" up and running. The way I read the rule is. When the first grappler attacks the other he does his damage but since the other guy has Armor of elements furry up to. The Attacker will take damage. Now on the defenders turn whether he decides to break the grapple or reverse the grapple they would both take damage again. Ok that's how I think the rules read. Any other interpretations or any support for my interpretations of the rules. AND if this has already been brought up can someone please tell me the ruling by the MST Thanks so much -- Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) OOC Tim Harrison US2005106799 Oklahoma SC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080201/f4f296fd/attachment.html From todd.branch at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 15:58:07 2008 From: todd.branch at gmail.com (Todd Branch) Date: Fri Feb 1 15:58:47 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Hello I am sending this out here because i am not getting much help in the other lists In-Reply-To: <651faac00802011120n18adc650sc6b0e2b29de94c0@mail.gmail.com> References: <651faac00802011120n18adc650sc6b0e2b29de94c0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61404a660802011258l3ad7d51al55f405709f4f66b1@mail.gmail.com> Hey Tim, Here is how I would handle it, and this is far from "official". Player A has Armor of Elemental Fury active. He grapples player B. Grapple takes an action, and thus wouldn't allow you to use the mechanics for "dealing damage with the element" in Armor of the Elemental Fury. So on round 1 player B is grappled by Player A and no damage is done. On turn two, if Player A goes first then he can choose to "Damage Opponent" and inflict the elemental damage. If he chooses another action, regardless of the physical touch or not, I would not allow the Damage from AoEF. If Player B goes first, he can try to break the grapple. If he does then he is dealt no damage that turn. If two people with AoEF is active, it works much the same. They must spend their action doing a touch attack or a "Damage Opponent" in a grapple attack to hurt each other offensivley on their turn. If Player A has AoEF and Player B has AoEF active and they grapple, when either player is offensively doing damage via a touch they are delt damage from the other players AoEF. While the "reality" of the situation would have lots more damage being done, I tend to side with the less damaging but more equitable interpretation of the rules. Todd Branch US2002021063 On Feb 1, 2008 11:20 AM, Tim Harrison wrote: > > > Hello everyone, this is my first post ever on one of these lists please > forgive me. If I am putting this question on the wrong list. > > > I have not yet seen this happen in a live Cam game but I have run into it > while running my own table top Lost game. > > So I figure it will come up in the Cam if it already hasn't > > > > > > Armor of the elements furry, the 2 dot elemental contract says, > > > > "The character surrounds herself with a damaging manifestation of the > element. The character does half of her weird (round up) lethal damage by > touch, and anyone or any object that strikes her suffers the same damage." > > > > No he is the situations I need clarifications on. > > > > First if a person initiates a grapple attack and grapples and opponent, > since he is now touching his opponent, does he automatically do the lethal > damage from his "armor of the elements furry" on his turn when he attacked? > > That's the first question. Now let's take that same fight as above. The > person with the damage shield has the opponent grappled. Once some on is in > a grapple they have two options combat wise. One they try to reverse that > grapple and be the attacker. Second they can try to break the grapple and > then get away form the grappler. I would think at this time in either of > these cases, this is a touching attack, against the grappler with "Armor of > the elements furry" up and running. So the grappler's opponent would once > again take damage. > > > > Ok now here is my last question on the subject. > > > > Now let's say both of the opponents have "Armor of the elements" up and > running. The way I read the rule is. When the first grappler attacks the > other he does his damage but since the other guy has Armor of elements furry > up to. The Attacker will take damage. Now on the defenders turn whether he > decides to break the grapple or reverse the grapple they would both take > damage again. > > > > > > Ok that's how I think the rules read. Any other interpretations or any > support for my interpretations of the rules. > > > > AND if this has already been brought up can someone please tell me the > ruling by the MST > > > > > > Thanks so much > > > -- > Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) > > OOC Tim Harrison > US2005106799 > Oklahoma SC > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > From todd.branch at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 17:05:54 2008 From: todd.branch at gmail.com (Todd Branch) Date: Fri Feb 1 17:06:37 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] "Armor of the elements furry" question In-Reply-To: <651faac00802011125n1b0aff0focca2f533c6cc75d@mail.gmail.com> References: <651faac00802011125n1b0aff0focca2f533c6cc75d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61404a660802011405u5464ae53r5101bbf7ee579c8b@mail.gmail.com> Hey Tim, Here is how I would handle it, and this is far from "official". Player A has Armor of Elemental Fury active. He grapples player B. Grapple takes an action, and thus wouldn't allow you to use the mechanics for "dealing damage with the element" in Armor of the Elemental Fury. So on round 1 player B is grappled by Player A and no damage is done. On turn two, if Player A goes first then he can choose to "Damage Opponent" and inflict the elemental damage. If he chooses another action, regardless of the physical touch or not, I would not allow the Damage from AoEF. If Player B goes first, he can try to break the grapple. If he does then he is dealt no damage that turn. If two people with AoEF is active, it works much the same. They must spend their action doing a touch attack or a "Damage Opponent" in a grapple attack to hurt each other offensivley on their turn. If Player A has AoEF and Player B has AoEF active and they grapple, when either player is offensively doing damage via a touch they are delt damage from the other players AoEF. While the "reality" of the situation would have lots more damage being done, I tend to side with the less damaging but more equitable interpretation of the rules. Todd Branch US2002021063 On Feb 1, 2008 11:25 AM, Tim Harrison wrote: > > > > Hello everyone, this is my first post ever on one of these lists please > forgive me. If I am putting this question on the wrong list. > > > I have not yet seen this happen in a live Cam game but I have run into it > while running my own table top Lost game. > > So I figure it will come up in the Cam if it already hasn't > > > > > > Armor of the elements furry, the 2 dot elemental contract says, > > > > "The character surrounds herself with a damaging manifestation of the > element. The character does half of her weird (round up) lethal damage by > touch, and anyone or any object that strikes her suffers the same damage." > > > > Now here is the situations I need clarifications on. > > > > First if a person initiates a grapple attack and grapples and opponent, > since he is now touching his opponent, does he automatically do the lethal > damage from his "armor of the elements furry" on his turn when he attacked? > > That's the first question. Now let's take that same fight as above. The > person with the damage shield has the opponent grappled. Once some on is in > a grapple they have two options combat wise. One they try to reverse that > grapple and be the attacker. Second they can try to break the grapple and > then get away form the grappler. I would think at this time in either of > these cases, this is a touching attack, against the grappler with "Armor of > the elements furry" up and running. So the grappler's opponent would once > again take damage. > > > > Ok now here is my last question on the subject. > > > > Now let's say both of the opponents have "Armor of the elements" up and > running. The way I read the rule is. When the first grappler attacks the > other he does his damage but since the other guy has Armor of elements furry > up to. The Attacker will take damage. Now on the defenders turn whether he > decides to break the grapple or reverse the grapple they would both take > damage again. > > > > > > Ok that's how I think the rules read. Any other interpretations or any > support for my interpretations of the rules. > > > > AND if this has already been brought up can someone please tell me the > ruling by the MST > > > > > > Thanks so much > > -- > Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) > > OOC Tim Harrison > US2005106799 > Oklahoma SC > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > From jonathan.argles at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 17:32:32 2008 From: jonathan.argles at gmail.com (Jonathan Argles) Date: Fri Feb 1 17:33:12 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] "Armor of the elements furry" question In-Reply-To: <61404a660802011405u5464ae53r5101bbf7ee579c8b@mail.gmail.com> References: <651faac00802011125n1b0aff0focca2f533c6cc75d@mail.gmail.com> <61404a660802011405u5464ae53r5101bbf7ee579c8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d014aea0802011432yb79e021k2418dd9080ca72c6@mail.gmail.com> You know what's missing from this contract? Duration. An exceptional success gives you till sunrise or sunset, but there's no mention of how long a normal success lasts. We could assume a scene, but it'd have to be added, 'cause it ain't there. The defense thing is a no-brainer - it gives an extra level of 1/1/1 armour regardless against any attack from a brick in a sock to burning hellfire, just the same as strapping on a kevlar vest. Not cold iron, though, natch. Now for the attack, let's look at how this stacks up. Does Half-wyrd lethal by touch. That's 'by touch' not by being touched, like Blood Fire. It also states that it does damage when being struck. That's being struck, not grabbed. So, like Todd says, the initial grapple wouldn't be reflexively impinged by you being grabbed; but the next round, on your initiative, you'd be able to make an attack with your element. Example: Slick is a Waterborn Elemental. He specialises in polluted waters, and has made a contract with the Element of Oil. He has pinned down Wart, a Swimmerskin Toad who he found in his waters and conjures up thick black squid-like tendrils with which he plans to administer a spanking. All of a sudden, Triton, a Water-dweller Ogre, roars from the deeps and grabs him around the waist. Slick's arms are pinned, and as it's not his arms that actually attack, he has to wait until his turn. The oily tendrils thwap at Triton's face as Slick wriggles to get free. Jon A UK0006964 On Feb 1, 2008 10:05 PM, Todd Branch wrote: > Hey Tim, > > Here is how I would handle it, and this is far from "official". > > Player A has Armor of Elemental Fury active. He grapples player B. > Grapple takes an action, and thus wouldn't allow you to use the > mechanics for "dealing damage with the element" in Armor of the > Elemental Fury. So on round 1 player B is grappled by Player A and no > damage is done. > > On turn two, if Player A goes first then he can choose to "Damage > Opponent" and inflict the elemental damage. If he chooses another > action, regardless of the physical touch or not, I would not allow the > Damage from AoEF. If Player B goes first, he can try to break the > grapple. If he does then he is dealt no damage that turn. > > If two people with AoEF is active, it works much the same. They must > spend their action doing a touch attack or a "Damage Opponent" in a > grapple attack to hurt each other offensivley on their turn. If > Player A has AoEF and Player B has AoEF active and they grapple, when > either player is offensively doing damage via a touch they are delt > damage from the other players AoEF. > > While the "reality" of the situation would have lots more damage being > done, I tend to side with the less damaging but more equitable > interpretation of the rules. > > Todd Branch > US2002021063 > > > On Feb 1, 2008 11:25 AM, Tim Harrison wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello everyone, this is my first post ever on one of these lists please > > forgive me. If I am putting this question on the wrong list. > > > > > > I have not yet seen this happen in a live Cam game but I have run into it > > while running my own table top Lost game. > > > > So I figure it will come up in the Cam if it already hasn't > > > > > > > > > > > > Armor of the elements furry, the 2 dot elemental contract says, > > > > > > > > "The character surrounds herself with a damaging manifestation of the > > element. The character does half of her weird (round up) lethal damage by > > touch, and anyone or any object that strikes her suffers the same damage." > > > > > > > > Now here is the situations I need clarifications on. > > > > > > > > First if a person initiates a grapple attack and grapples and opponent, > > since he is now touching his opponent, does he automatically do the lethal > > damage from his "armor of the elements furry" on his turn when he attacked? > > > > That's the first question. Now let's take that same fight as above. The > > person with the damage shield has the opponent grappled. Once some on is in > > a grapple they have two options combat wise. One they try to reverse that > > grapple and be the attacker. Second they can try to break the grapple and > > then get away form the grappler. I would think at this time in either of > > these cases, this is a touching attack, against the grappler with "Armor of > > the elements furry" up and running. So the grappler's opponent would once > > again take damage. > > > > > > > > Ok now here is my last question on the subject. > > > > > > > > Now let's say both of the opponents have "Armor of the elements" up and > > running. The way I read the rule is. When the first grappler attacks the > > other he does his damage but since the other guy has Armor of elements furry > > up to. The Attacker will take damage. Now on the defenders turn whether he > > decides to break the grapple or reverse the grapple they would both take > > damage again. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok that's how I think the rules read. Any other interpretations or any > > support for my interpretations of the rules. > > > > > > > > AND if this has already been brought up can someone please tell me the > > ruling by the MST > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much > > > > -- > > Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) > > > > OOC Tim Harrison > > US2005106799 > > Oklahoma SC > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > From djayeros at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 17:56:39 2008 From: djayeros at gmail.com (Tim Harrison) Date: Fri Feb 1 17:57:18 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] "Armor of the elements furry" question In-Reply-To: <2d014aea0802011432yb79e021k2418dd9080ca72c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <651faac00802011125n1b0aff0focca2f533c6cc75d@mail.gmail.com> <61404a660802011405u5464ae53r5101bbf7ee579c8b@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0802011432yb79e021k2418dd9080ca72c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <651faac00802011456k4f33e049h5f14dbf229d79fef@mail.gmail.com> "uration. An exceptional success gives you till sunrise or sunset, but there's no mention of how long a normal success lasts. We could assume a scene, but it'd have to be added, 'cause it ain't there." The contract says at the end of the paragraph for normal success that it lasts a scene. "...The element surrounds the character for the next scene" On Feb 1, 2008 4:32 PM, Jonathan Argles wrote: > You know what's missing from this contract? > > Duration. An exceptional success gives you till sunrise or sunset, but > there's no mention of how long a normal success lasts. We could assume > a scene, but it'd have to be added, 'cause it ain't there. > > The defense thing is a no-brainer - it gives an extra level of 1/1/1 > armour regardless against any attack from a brick in a sock to burning > hellfire, just the same as strapping on a kevlar vest. Not cold iron, > though, natch. > > Now for the attack, let's look at how this stacks up. > > Does Half-wyrd lethal by touch. That's 'by touch' not by being > touched, like Blood Fire. It also states that it does damage when > being struck. That's being struck, not grabbed. So, like Todd says, > the initial grapple wouldn't be reflexively impinged by you being > grabbed; but the next round, on your initiative, you'd be able to make > an attack with your element. > > Example: Slick is a Waterborn Elemental. He specialises in polluted > waters, and has made a contract with the Element of Oil. He has pinned > down Wart, a Swimmerskin Toad who he found in his waters and conjures > up thick black squid-like tendrils with which he plans to administer a > spanking. All of a sudden, Triton, a Water-dweller Ogre, roars from > the deeps and grabs him around the waist. Slick's arms are pinned, and > as it's not his arms that actually attack, he has to wait until his > turn. The oily tendrils thwap at Triton's face as Slick wriggles to > get free. > > Jon A > UK0006964 > > On Feb 1, 2008 10:05 PM, Todd Branch wrote: > > Hey Tim, > > > > Here is how I would handle it, and this is far from "official". > > > > Player A has Armor of Elemental Fury active. He grapples player B. > > Grapple takes an action, and thus wouldn't allow you to use the > > mechanics for "dealing damage with the element" in Armor of the > > Elemental Fury. So on round 1 player B is grappled by Player A and no > > damage is done. > > > > On turn two, if Player A goes first then he can choose to "Damage > > Opponent" and inflict the elemental damage. If he chooses another > > action, regardless of the physical touch or not, I would not allow the > > Damage from AoEF. If Player B goes first, he can try to break the > > grapple. If he does then he is dealt no damage that turn. > > > > If two people with AoEF is active, it works much the same. They must > > spend their action doing a touch attack or a "Damage Opponent" in a > > grapple attack to hurt each other offensivley on their turn. If > > Player A has AoEF and Player B has AoEF active and they grapple, when > > either player is offensively doing damage via a touch they are delt > > damage from the other players AoEF. > > > > While the "reality" of the situation would have lots more damage being > > done, I tend to side with the less damaging but more equitable > > interpretation of the rules. > > > > Todd Branch > > US2002021063 > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 11:25 AM, Tim Harrison wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone, this is my first post ever on one of these lists > please > > > forgive me. If I am putting this question on the wrong list. > > > > > > > > > I have not yet seen this happen in a live Cam game but I have run into > it > > > while running my own table top Lost game. > > > > > > So I figure it will come up in the Cam if it already hasn't > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Armor of the elements furry, the 2 dot elemental contract says, > > > > > > > > > > > > "The character surrounds herself with a damaging manifestation of the > > > element. The character does half of her weird (round up) lethal damage > by > > > touch, and anyone or any object that strikes her suffers the same > damage." > > > > > > > > > > > > Now here is the situations I need clarifications on. > > > > > > > > > > > > First if a person initiates a grapple attack and grapples and > opponent, > > > since he is now touching his opponent, does he automatically do the > lethal > > > damage from his "armor of the elements furry" on his turn when he > attacked? > > > > > > That's the first question. Now let's take that same fight as above. > The > > > person with the damage shield has the opponent grappled. Once some on > is in > > > a grapple they have two options combat wise. One they try to reverse > that > > > grapple and be the attacker. Second they can try to break the grapple > and > > > then get away form the grappler. I would think at this time in either > of > > > these cases, this is a touching attack, against the grappler with > "Armor of > > > the elements furry" up and running. So the grappler's opponent would > once > > > again take damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok now here is my last question on the subject. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now let's say both of the opponents have "Armor of the elements" up > and > > > running. The way I read the rule is. When the first grappler attacks > the > > > other he does his damage but since the other guy has Armor of elements > furry > > > up to. The Attacker will take damage. Now on the defenders turn > whether he > > > decides to break the grapple or reverse the grapple they would both > take > > > damage again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok that's how I think the rules read. Any other interpretations or any > > > support for my interpretations of the rules. > > > > > > > > > > > > AND if this has already been brought up can someone please tell me the > > > ruling by the MST > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much > > > > > > -- > > > Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) > > > > > > OOC Tim Harrison > > > US2005106799 > > > Oklahoma SC > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) OOC Tim Harrison US2005106799 Oklahoma SC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080201/759b74f4/attachment-0001.html From gmountford.larp at hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 19:50:04 2008 From: gmountford.larp at hotmail.com (Gary Mountford) Date: Fri Feb 1 19:50:45 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual Message-ID: Since there is now a Bestiary addendum to the Camarilla Addendum, the Camarilla ?Monster? Creation Manual is no longer valid. Gazza VST WW SRC AU2005100767Gary Mountford VST SRC Awakening, DC SRCAU2005100767 _________________________________________________________________ New music from the Rogue Traders - listen now! http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=832&referral=hotmailtaglineOct07&URL=http://music.ninemsn.com.au/roguetraders -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080202/60a16cc0/attachment.html From argynt at hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 20:05:18 2008 From: argynt at hotmail.com (James Leavings) Date: Fri Feb 1 20:05:56 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't see any reason why. The beastiary contains cut-and-pastes of various plain old animals WW has put out in different sourcebooks, merely collected together. The monster creation guide is just that- a guide for creation of monsters. I find it hard to see the logic in saying "because the MST has collected stats for an Elephant and a wolf together, the ability to use Bloody Mary or create some unique antogonist is suspended.". James Leavings US2005106684 From: gmountford.larp@hotmail.comTo: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.comDate: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 11:20:04 +1030Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual Since there is now a Bestiary addendum to the Camarilla Addendum, the Camarilla ?Monster? Creation Manual is no longer valid. Gazza VST WW SRC AU2005100767Gary Mountford VST SRC Awakening, DC SRCAU2005100767 Listen now! New music from the Rogue Traders. _________________________________________________________________ Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080201/bcad5246/attachment.html From amst.settings at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 20:07:49 2008 From: amst.settings at gmail.com (Robin Cannon - AMST CoS: Settings) Date: Fri Feb 1 20:08:31 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47a3c266.01b4420a.63a3.23c0@mx.google.com> Not at all. The bestiary is for mundane creatures, the monster manual is designed to create supernatural and unusual creatures and is still completely valid for ST use. ----- Robin Cannon UK02102071 AMST CoS: Settings www.fogofeternity.com www.babbleandstuff.com "But here's where we are, Doctor. If anyone can be a Cylon, and it's hard to tell us apart then we only have one thing left to trust, our instincts, our feelings. And the moment they told me it was your face in the photo I knew I believed it. I believe you were involved in the attack... somehow. I feel it." "You'll forgive me, Madam President, if I don't wish to be executed based solely on your gut feeling." From: cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of Gary Mountford Sent: 02 February 2008 00:50 To: Camarilla Rules Advocacy Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual Since there is now a Bestiary addendum to the Camarilla Addendum, the Camarilla "Monster" Creation Manual is no longer valid. Gazza VST WW SRC AU2005100767 Gary Mountford VST SRC Awakening, DC SRC AU2005100767 _____ Listen now! New music from the Rogue Traders. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080202/034ded9c/attachment.html From gmountford.larp at hotmail.com Fri Feb 1 20:28:49 2008 From: gmountford.larp at hotmail.com (Gary Mountford) Date: Fri Feb 1 20:29:29 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual In-Reply-To: <47a3c266.01b4420a.63a3.23c0@mx.google.com> References: <47a3c266.01b4420a.63a3.23c0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Thanks for that guys. There is a line in the bestiary that states Animals that do not conform with these entries are considered Custom and require Global Approval. I was making sure that unusual beasts and hence this Manual was no longer in play. What happens if I make up an animal using the Monster Manual ? Is it considered Custom and hence Global Approval ? Gary Mountford VST SRC Awakening, DC SRCAU2005100767 From: amst.settings@gmail.comTo: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.comSubject: RE: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster ManualDate: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 01:07:49 +0000 Not at all. The bestiary is for mundane creatures, the monster manual is designed to create supernatural and unusual creatures and is still completely valid for ST use. ----- Robin CannonUK02102071AMST CoS: Settings www.fogofeternity.com www.babbleandstuff.com "But here's where we are, Doctor. If anyone can be a Cylon, and it's hard to tell us apart then we only have one thing left to trust, our instincts, our feelings. And the moment they told me it was your face in the photo I knew I believed it. I believe you were involved in the attack... somehow. I feel it." "You'll forgive me, Madam President, if I don't wish to be executed based solely on your gut feeling." From: cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of Gary MountfordSent: 02 February 2008 00:50To: Camarilla Rules AdvocacySubject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual Since there is now a Bestiary addendum to the Camarilla Addendum, the Camarilla ?Monster? Creation Manual is no longer valid. Gazza VST WW SRC AU2005100767 Gary Mountford VST SRC Awakening, DC SRCAU2005100767 Listen now! New music from the Rogue Traders. _________________________________________________________________ It's simple! Sell your car for just $30 at CarPoint.com.au http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F859641&_t=762955845&_r=tig_OCT07&_m=EXT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080202/193272a5/attachment-0001.html From camarilla.mike at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 20:31:29 2008 From: camarilla.mike at gmail.com (Michael Bryan) Date: Fri Feb 1 20:32:08 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual In-Reply-To: References: <47a3c266.01b4420a.63a3.23c0@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <600368fd0802011731s6ed2b99oc491967a2ac4c4e6@mail.gmail.com> Hmmm, didn't know about that line until just know, does that mean that if you have an animal retainer you can't spend xp to raise stats (or say have a raven with the giant merit?) On 2/1/08, Gary Mountford wrote: > > Thanks for that guys. > > There is a line in the bestiary that states > Animals that do not conform with these entries are considered Custom and > require Global Approval. > > I was making sure that unusual beasts and hence this Manual was no longer > in play. > > What happens if I make up an animal using the Monster Manual ? Is it > considered Custom and hence Global Approval ? > > > Gary Mountford > VST SRC Awakening, DC SRC > AU2005100767 > > > ------------------------------ > From: amst.settings@gmail.com > To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > Subject: RE: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 01:07:49 +0000 > > Not at all. The bestiary is for mundane creatures, the monster manual is > designed to create supernatural and unusual creatures and is still > completely valid for ST use. > > > > ----- > > Robin Cannon > UK02102071 > AMST CoS: Settings > > www.fogofeternity.com > > www.babbleandstuff.com > > > "But here's where we are, Doctor. If anyone can be a Cylon, and it's hard > to tell us apart then we only have one thing left to trust, our instincts, > our feelings. And the moment they told me it was your face in the photo I > knew I believed it. I believe you were involved in the attack... somehow. I > feel it." > > "You'll forgive me, Madam President, if I don't wish to be executed based > solely on your gut feeling." > > > > > > *From:* cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto: > cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary > Mountford > *Sent:* 02 February 2008 00:50 > *To:* Camarilla Rules Advocacy > *Subject:* [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual > > > > Since there is now a Bestiary addendum to the Camarilla Addendum, the > Camarilla "Monster" Creation Manual is no longer valid. > > > > Gazza > > VST WW SRC > > AU2005100767 > > > > Gary Mountford > VST SRC Awakening, DC SRC > AU2005100767 > ------------------------------ > > Listen now! New music from the Rogue Traders. > > > ------------------------------ > Sell your car for just $30 at CarPoint.com.au . It's > simple! > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Michael Bryan US2005043255 When IC (Requiem) Baron Alder Miguel Almidon Eldriago Gangrel Priscus of Charlotte Sheriff of Charlotte Patriarch House Eldriago Legatus of Japan Patron of the Bitter Rose Invictus x 3 Gangrel x 1 http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Miguel_Almidon_Eldriago (Awakening) Shiin Guardians of the Veil x 2 http://guardians.cam-wiki.org/index.php/Shiin (Lost) Trystan Hunter Summer Mantle x 1 Knight Banneret Charlotte US Marshals x 3 http://changeling.cam-wiki.org/index.php/Trystan_Hunter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080201/9c0fd640/attachment.html From zareaus at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 21:20:37 2008 From: zareaus at gmail.com (Zareaus) Date: Fri Feb 1 21:21:27 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual In-Reply-To: <600368fd0802011731s6ed2b99oc491967a2ac4c4e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <47a3c266.01b4420a.63a3.23c0@mx.google.com> <600368fd0802011731s6ed2b99oc491967a2ac4c4e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8937c0960802011820u1e331649h605fe6849b8ec779@mail.gmail.com> I was thinking the same thing. Plus if you ghoul an animal it's stats change so would that require the global app? I don't think either would make sense, especially with global not approving as may custom items, but then again not everything makes sense the way it is done. On 2/1/08, Michael Bryan wrote: > Hmmm, didn't know about that line until just know, does that mean that if > you have an animal retainer you can't spend xp to raise stats (or say have a > raven with the giant merit?) > -- IC- Zareaus Karan http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Zareaus_Karan OOC- Joshua Prevost US2006088408 From mmex at digitalfreaks.org Sat Feb 2 03:32:06 2008 From: mmex at digitalfreaks.org (Mathew Monroe) Date: Sat Feb 2 03:32:51 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? Message-ID: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> MET-A page 198 states: "Spells with multiple effects require each effect to be learned as a separate rote. For example, Telekinetic Strike can be cast in Forces 3, 4 and 5 versions; each version is a separate rote." However this is obscure as it is under the rote creation section, and it is not clear if it is meant to apply to existing rotes. As a result I am wondering, "If I buy the Telekinetic Strike rote do I have to specify which level it is?" Spending 24 xp to have access to all three damage types is acceptable if that is the rule, however I am not sure was the intent. Mathew Monroe US2002034186 From rulesninja at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 03:34:07 2008 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Sat Feb 2 03:34:47 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> Message-ID: <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> That's what it would seem. If they're different rotes, you'd need to buy each one. On Feb 2, 2008 2:32 AM, Mathew Monroe wrote: > MET-A page 198 states: "Spells with multiple effects require each effect > to be learned as a separate rote. For example, Telekinetic Strike can be > cast in Forces 3, 4 and 5 versions; each version is a separate rote." > > However this is obscure as it is under the rote creation section, and it > is not clear if it is meant to apply to existing rotes. As a result I > am wondering, "If I buy the Telekinetic Strike rote do I have to specify > which level it is?" > > Spending 24 xp to have access to all three damage types is acceptable if > that is the rule, however I am not sure was the intent. > > Mathew Monroe > US2002034186 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC http://www.cam-wiki.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080202/9dd424ca/attachment.html From amst.settings at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 08:25:15 2008 From: amst.settings at gmail.com (Robin Cannon - AMST CoS: Settings) Date: Sat Feb 2 08:25:57 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual In-Reply-To: <8937c0960802011820u1e331649h605fe6849b8ec779@mail.gmail.com> References: <47a3c266.01b4420a.63a3.23c0@mx.google.com> <600368fd0802011731s6ed2b99oc491967a2ac4c4e6@mail.gmail.com> <8937c0960802011820u1e331649h605fe6849b8ec779@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47a46f3b.1806420a.750b.fffff6e1@mx.google.com> That may be an oversight (one way or another), I'll make sure that it's clarified in the next addendum. ----- Robin Cannon UK02102071 AMST CoS: Settings www.fogofeternity.com www.babbleandstuff.com "But here's where we are, Doctor. If anyone can be a Cylon, and it's hard to tell us apart then we only have one thing left to trust, our instincts, our feelings. And the moment they told me it was your face in the photo I knew I believed it. I believe you were involved in the attack... somehow. I feel it." "You'll forgive me, Madam President, if I don't wish to be executed based solely on your gut feeling." -----Original Message----- From: cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of Zareaus Sent: 02 February 2008 02:21 To: Rules discussion and advocacy Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual I was thinking the same thing. Plus if you ghoul an animal it's stats change so would that require the global app? I don't think either would make sense, especially with global not approving as may custom items, but then again not everything makes sense the way it is done. On 2/1/08, Michael Bryan wrote: > Hmmm, didn't know about that line until just know, does that mean that if > you have an animal retainer you can't spend xp to raise stats (or say have a > raven with the giant merit?) > -- IC- Zareaus Karan http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Zareaus_Karan OOC- Joshua Prevost US2006088408 _______________________________________________ Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy From machineiv at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 12:39:36 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Sat Feb 2 12:40:15 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual In-Reply-To: <47a46f3b.1806420a.750b.fffff6e1@mx.google.com> References: <47a3c266.01b4420a.63a3.23c0@mx.google.com> <600368fd0802011731s6ed2b99oc491967a2ac4c4e6@mail.gmail.com> <8937c0960802011820u1e331649h605fe6849b8ec779@mail.gmail.com> <47a46f3b.1806420a.750b.fffff6e1@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50802020939x3fb3ef67nf044b5adb1e93c10@mail.gmail.com> I don't see it as changing the stats. I see it as adding a lesser template. On Feb 2, 2008 8:25 AM, Robin Cannon - AMST CoS: Settings < amst.settings@gmail.com> wrote: > That may be an oversight (one way or another), I'll make sure that it's > clarified in the next addendum. > > ----- > Robin Cannon > UK02102071 > AMST CoS: Settings > www.fogofeternity.com > www.babbleandstuff.com > > "But here's where we are, Doctor. If anyone can be a Cylon, and it's hard > to > tell us apart then we only have one thing left to trust, our instincts, > our > feelings. And the moment they told me it was your face in the photo I knew > I > believed it. I believe you were involved in the attack... somehow. I feel > it." > > "You'll forgive me, Madam President, if I don't wish to be executed based > solely on your gut feeling." > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > [mailto:cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of > Zareaus > Sent: 02 February 2008 02:21 > To: Rules discussion and advocacy > Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Monster Manual > > I was thinking the same thing. > > Plus if you ghoul an animal it's stats change so would that require > the global app? > > I don't think either would make sense, especially with global not > approving as may custom items, but then again not everything makes > sense the way it is done. > > On 2/1/08, Michael Bryan wrote: > > Hmmm, didn't know about that line until just know, does that mean that > if > > you have an animal retainer you can't spend xp to raise stats (or say > have > a > > raven with the giant merit?) > > > > > -- > IC- > Zareaus Karan > http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Zareaus_Karan > > OOC- > Joshua Prevost > US2006088408 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- -- -David A Hill Jr Domain Storyteller PA-015-D The City of Brotherly Love EC Project Assistant: Lost US2003071853 "I promise to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, that I will never accept what I am told, that I will never fall in love with safety and forget liberty. I promise that I will look for the lie in every pretty story and the bribe in every convenience." -Jim Marcus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080202/ebef91cc/attachment.html From mmex at digitalfreaks.org Sat Feb 2 12:55:32 2008 From: mmex at digitalfreaks.org (Mathew Monroe) Date: Sat Feb 2 12:56:13 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> m0rtis wrote: > That's what it would seem. If they're different rotes, you'd need to buy > each one. > Due to that rules placement is it really not well know and not clear. It is even more unclear which other spells are like this. For example, Suppress other Life only works by touch at level 4. Level 5 lets you use it at sensory range. Are the level 4 and level 5 versions different rotes? What about Augment Other Minds which normally only acts like Augment the Mind at Mind 4, but like Supreme Augmentation at Mind 5. Are the Mind 4 and Mind 5 versions different rotes? If I have a rote and one higher level of arcana can I still use the rote but convert it to area-affecting? Or is that a different spell effect? Mathew Monroe US2002034186 From eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 23:31:21 2008 From: eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sat Feb 2 23:32:02 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> Message-ID: <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> As to the rest, I'm still waiting for clarification, but this one, as far as I can tell, is always another spell effect. I can only find one set of spells that works similarly to what you describe (Temporal Pocket and Faerie Glade), so I figure that's more of an anomaly than a rule of thumb. On Feb 2, 2008 12:55 PM, Mathew Monroe wrote: > If I have a rote and one higher level of arcana can I still use the rote > but convert it to area-affecting? Or is that a different spell effect? -- Eric Moore US2004112432 I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. You are in my Monkeysphere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080202/c013e708/attachment.html From eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com Sun Feb 3 10:49:47 2008 From: eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun Feb 3 10:50:27 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> And on this same note, do conjunctional arcana count for this too? Do I have to learn a different rote to add Matter 4 to a Pocket Realm so I don't suffocate, and both that and the basic one separately from the one with a Life 5 conjunctional effect that creates a mystical life-sustaining effect? How about the Control Heat spell? Do I have to buy two separate rotes to heat and cool a room? (Yes, I know I don't actually have to buy the rote to cast it, but still.) -- Eric Moore US2004112432 I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. You are in my Monkeysphere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080203/2b0ce5a2/attachment.html From sborucke at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 3 19:23:04 2008 From: sborucke at sbcglobal.net (Stephen Borucke) Date: Sun Feb 3 19:23:48 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <651faac00802011456k4f33e049h5f14dbf229d79fef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <895369.72827.qm@web81013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hey, Was wondering if you can stack multiple versions of this power to get multiple levels of damage? Just before anyone says they are mutually exclusive, how about fire and electricity? Just a bad thought. Stephen Borucke US2002022773 Tim Harrison wrote: "uration. An exceptional success gives you till sunrise or sunset, but there's no mention of how long a normal success lasts. We could assume a scene, but it'd have to be added, 'cause it ain't there." The contract says at the end of the paragraph for normal success that it lasts a scene. "...The element surrounds the character for the next scene" On Feb 1, 2008 4:32 PM, Jonathan Argles wrote: You know what's missing from this contract? Duration. An exceptional success gives you till sunrise or sunset, but there's no mention of how long a normal success lasts. We could assume a scene, but it'd have to be added, 'cause it ain't there. The defense thing is a no-brainer - it gives an extra level of 1/1/1 armour regardless against any attack from a brick in a sock to burning hellfire, just the same as strapping on a kevlar vest. Not cold iron, though, natch. Now for the attack, let's look at how this stacks up. Does Half-wyrd lethal by touch. That's 'by touch' not by being touched, like Blood Fire. It also states that it does damage when being struck. That's being struck, not grabbed. So, like Todd says, the initial grapple wouldn't be reflexively impinged by you being grabbed; but the next round, on your initiative, you'd be able to make an attack with your element. Example: Slick is a Waterborn Elemental. He specialises in polluted waters, and has made a contract with the Element of Oil. He has pinned down Wart, a Swimmerskin Toad who he found in his waters and conjures up thick black squid-like tendrils with which he plans to administer a spanking. All of a sudden, Triton, a Water-dweller Ogre, roars from the deeps and grabs him around the waist. Slick's arms are pinned, and as it's not his arms that actually attack, he has to wait until his turn. The oily tendrils thwap at Triton's face as Slick wriggles to get free. Jon A UK0006964 On Feb 1, 2008 10:05 PM, Todd Branch wrote: > Hey Tim, > > Here is how I would handle it, and this is far from "official". > > Player A has Armor of Elemental Fury active. He grapples player B. > Grapple takes an action, and thus wouldn't allow you to use the > mechanics for "dealing damage with the element" in Armor of the > Elemental Fury. So on round 1 player B is grappled by Player A and no > damage is done. > > On turn two, if Player A goes first then he can choose to "Damage > Opponent" and inflict the elemental damage. If he chooses another > action, regardless of the physical touch or not, I would not allow the > Damage from AoEF. If Player B goes first, he can try to break the > grapple. If he does then he is dealt no damage that turn. > > If two people with AoEF is active, it works much the same. They must > spend their action doing a touch attack or a "Damage Opponent" in a > grapple attack to hurt each other offensivley on their turn. If > Player A has AoEF and Player B has AoEF active and they grapple, when > either player is offensively doing damage via a touch they are delt > damage from the other players AoEF. > > While the "reality" of the situation would have lots more damage being > done, I tend to side with the less damaging but more equitable > interpretation of the rules. > > Todd Branch > US2002021063 > > > On Feb 1, 2008 11:25 AM, Tim Harrison wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello everyone, this is my first post ever on one of these lists please > > forgive me. If I am putting this question on the wrong list. > > > > > > I have not yet seen this happen in a live Cam game but I have run into it > > while running my own table top Lost game. > > > > So I figure it will come up in the Cam if it already hasn't > > > > > > > > > > > > Armor of the elements furry, the 2 dot elemental contract says, > > > > > > > > "The character surrounds herself with a damaging manifestation of the > > element. The character does half of her weird (round up) lethal damage by > > touch, and anyone or any object that strikes her suffers the same damage." > > > > > > > > Now here is the situations I need clarifications on. > > > > > > > > First if a person initiates a grapple attack and grapples and opponent, > > since he is now touching his opponent, does he automatically do the lethal > > damage from his "armor of the elements furry" on his turn when he attacked? > > > > That's the first question. Now let's take that same fight as above. The > > person with the damage shield has the opponent grappled. Once some on is in > > a grapple they have two options combat wise. One they try to reverse that > > grapple and be the attacker. Second they can try to break the grapple and > > then get away form the grappler. I would think at this time in either of > > these cases, this is a touching attack, against the grappler with "Armor of > > the elements furry" up and running. So the grappler's opponent would once > > again take damage. > > > > > > > > Ok now here is my last question on the subject. > > > > > > > > Now let's say both of the opponents have "Armor of the elements" up and > > running. The way I read the rule is. When the first grappler attacks the > > other he does his damage but since the other guy has Armor of elements furry > > up to. The Attacker will take damage. Now on the defenders turn whether he > > decides to break the grapple or reverse the grapple they would both take > > damage again. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok that's how I think the rules read. Any other interpretations or any > > support for my interpretations of the rules. > > > > > > > > AND if this has already been brought up can someone please tell me the > > ruling by the MST > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks so much > > > > -- > > Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) > > > > OOC Tim Harrison > > US2005106799 > > Oklahoma SC > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > _______________________________________________ Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy -- Keona (Summer Elemental) Jean-Paul Spirit Blood (Crone 3 Gangrel 3) OOC Tim Harrison US2005106799 Oklahoma SC _______________________________________________ Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080203/726c54f3/attachment-0001.html From rulesninja at gmail.com Sun Feb 3 19:30:24 2008 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Sun Feb 3 19:31:09 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <895369.72827.qm@web81013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <651faac00802011456k4f33e049h5f14dbf229d79fef@mail.gmail.com> <895369.72827.qm@web81013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240802031630j25b20df7l9222eb18a6c6228b@mail.gmail.com> Can you quote me rules that says you can? =) On Feb 3, 2008 6:23 PM, Stephen Borucke wrote: > Hey, > > Was wondering if you can stack multiple versions of this power to get > multiple levels of damage? > > Just before anyone says they are mutually exclusive, how about fire and > electricity? > > Just a bad thought. > > -- Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC http://www.cam-wiki.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080203/71e3b425/attachment.html From eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com Sun Feb 3 19:32:48 2008 From: eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Sun Feb 3 19:33:30 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furys Message-ID: <8efd93220802031632r59592239x21a84c94862aab61@mail.gmail.com> Remember to trim your posts, please. As to stacking, I personally wouldn't allow it based on precedent set in Mage for armor stacking (where a person aiming to one side because of Mind armor doesn't stack with a bulletproof vest). On Feb 3, 2008 7:23 PM, Stephen Borucke wrote: > Hey, > > Was wondering if you can stack multiple versions of this power to get > multiple levels of damage? > > Just before anyone says they are mutually exclusive, how about fire and > electricity? > > Just a bad thought. > > Stephen Borucke > US2002022773 > -- Eric Moore US2004112432 I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. You are in my Monkeysphere. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080203/10ce43ba/attachment.html From james.jamesfoster at gmail.com Sun Feb 3 23:26:03 2008 From: james.jamesfoster at gmail.com (James Foster) Date: Sun Feb 3 23:26:46 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <49ffd2240802031630j25b20df7l9222eb18a6c6228b@mail.gmail.com> References: <651faac00802011456k4f33e049h5f14dbf229d79fef@mail.gmail.com> <895369.72827.qm@web81013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49ffd2240802031630j25b20df7l9222eb18a6c6228b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6bddec620802032026q101813c8u455f7df6340aab67@mail.gmail.com> Eh, damage no. But the actual armor? Debatable... On Feb 3, 2008 7:30 PM, m0rtis wrote: > Can you quote me rules that says you can? =) > > > On Feb 3, 2008 6:23 PM, Stephen Borucke wrote: > > > Hey, > > > > Was wondering if you can stack multiple versions of this power to get > > multiple levels of damage? > > > > Just before anyone says they are mutually exclusive, how about fire and > > electricity? > > > > Just a bad thought. > > > > > > -- > Dan Wright > US2002021042 > Domain Storyteller - OKC > http://www.cam-wiki.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- -James Foster US2004102252 DC (Bangor, ME-007-D) aVST Requiem Legacy (ME-007-D) ListMod Bangor E-mail List Plays: Alexi Petrovskii, Mekhet Ordo Dracul Gwydion Mac Brenna, Daeva Crone Peter Milliner-Crassus, Ghoul Tobias Soultongue, Elemental Autumn Airtouched Poe, Wizened Winter Brewer Deadbolt, Ithaeur Bone Shadow Lodge of Doors Sam'ael, Moros Silver Ladder, Scion of God Father Simon Noveau, Priory of Scion Macintosh, Tammuz Stannum -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080203/0f38c870/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 08:24:41 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 08:25:30 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furys In-Reply-To: <8efd93220802031632r59592239x21a84c94862aab61@mail.gmail.com> References: <8efd93220802031632r59592239x21a84c94862aab61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040524g3f25ea64k6c9d51e3cd923f7c@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 3, 2008 6:32 PM, Eric Moore wrote: > Remember to trim your posts, please. As to stacking, I personally wouldn't > allow it based on precedent set in Mage for armor stacking (where a person > aiming to one side because of Mind armor doesn't stack with a bulletproof > vest). > That 'precedent' doesn't carry over, as Contracts are far removed from Supernal Magic. Furthermore, that rule in Mage is non-nonsensical and not a good basis for argument in this subject. If you wish to make an opinion, back it up with some meaningful reason or argument. Felix Drost US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/a30ffeea/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 08:26:13 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 08:26:56 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <49ffd2240802031630j25b20df7l9222eb18a6c6228b@mail.gmail.com> References: <651faac00802011456k4f33e049h5f14dbf229d79fef@mail.gmail.com> <895369.72827.qm@web81013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49ffd2240802031630j25b20df7l9222eb18a6c6228b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040526u576b4c6el84c5b151ee0bee02@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 3, 2008 6:30 PM, m0rtis wrote: > Can you quote me rules that says you can? =) Quote me the rule that says you can't. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/7368944e/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 08:37:05 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 08:37:46 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> Or what about the Matter Transmutation spells? Do I need to learn/create a new rote to turn; Water into milk, then another rote for turning water into gasoline, and then another rote to turn water into whatever? Or how about "Reconfigure Object," do I need to learn different rotes for tuning different things into another? 1 Rote for Staplers into Light Pistols 1 Rote for Slinky into Handcuffs Etc. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/6fc93ed4/attachment.html From dspawlowski at mac.com Mon Feb 4 08:45:32 2008 From: dspawlowski at mac.com (Daniel Pawlowski) Date: Mon Feb 4 08:46:22 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4918D5AA-8541-4546-BB7F-71BF3B738F17@mac.com> It is my strong belief that if a given Spell does not state that there are different Rotes for different Arcana levels then they are not required. I state this due to the fact that most, if not all, of they Spells that state there are different Rotes are attack spells. With the general de-emphasis on combat attempted with the MET rules in general, I believe the requirement to expend more XP to have to opportunity to do a "better" type of damage is a method to balance things. Dan Pawlowski (US2002045158) On Feb 4, 2008, at 8:37 AM, Felix Drost wrote: > Or what about the Matter Transmutation spells? > Do I need to learn/create a new rote to turn; > Water into milk, then another rote for turning water into gasoline, > and then another rote to turn water into whatever? > Or how about "Reconfigure Object," do I need to learn different > rotes for tuning different things into another? > 1 Rote for Staplers into Light Pistols > 1 Rote for Slinky into Handcuffs > Etc. > > > Felix > US2003092300 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/f0a085bf/attachment-0001.html From v_utt at yahoo.com Mon Feb 4 09:09:50 2008 From: v_utt at yahoo.com (Vern Utt) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:10:32 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys Message-ID: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: m0rtis To: Rules discussion and advocacy Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2008 7:30:24 PM Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys Can you quote me rules that says you can? =) now now, you know better than that. That statement is never an acceptable answer. Consider for a moment a character that has fire and air call elements. It should be concivable for them to call both elements ,each on seperate turns. Nice effective way for mass destruction of an area..fan the flames. I do not see why a player would not be able to conjure a shield of two types of elements at the same time(on seperate turns), although I would believe st discrection should limit the damage from the shield to only one attack or damage effect. Much the same way that two mundane weapons can be used to strike one opponent but you will only get the effect of one weapon. IE a (really strong) character weilds a hammer type weapon +3 bashing and a dagger +1 leathal. the player swings both at an opponent (hes ambidexterous btw) now he has to choose which weapon to apply as his modifier either a +1 lethal or a +3 bashing not both or a combination of both. as someone else also noted regualr armor does not stack therefore it would be prudent to not allow this type of armor to stack as well. perhaps it would stack with worn mundane or other armor types from a different contract, but to use the same power over and over and over again should only give you the benifits of the specific power once other than the really cool effect of flames and air swirling around your body like a fire tornado. Vern us2002022910 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/18ce9dba/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 09:13:28 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:14:11 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <4918D5AA-8541-4546-BB7F-71BF3B738F17@mac.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> <4918D5AA-8541-4546-BB7F-71BF3B738F17@mac.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040613x114e319cw97a3f7d3f08432aa@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2008 7:45 AM, Daniel Pawlowski wrote: > It is my strong belief that if a given Spell does not state that there are > different Rotes for different Arcana levels then they are not required. I > state this due to the fact that most, if not all, of they Spells that state > there are different Rotes are attack spells. > Thats A) Not how the spells are written and ; For example Rotting Flesh" is a level 4 Death Rote. If you cast it with Mastery, you can expend a Mana to make that damage aggravated. There is no Level 5 "Rotting Flesh" rote, this rule creates one wholecloth. B) Not how the rule is written; The rule describes "effects" not damage. There under its umbrella it does, in fact describe the examples listed. Also, more examples- Transform Life [Base, etc] would require different rotes for turning a lizard into a newt, a newt to a lizard, a person to a pig, a deer into a person, etc. > With the general de-emphasis on *magic* attempted with the MET rules in > general, I believe the requirement to expend more XP to have to opportunity > to do a "better" type of damage is a method to balance things. > Fixed that for you. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/a3e0ac83/attachment.html From dspawlowski at mac.com Mon Feb 4 09:13:20 2008 From: dspawlowski at mac.com (Daniel Pawlowski) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:14:11 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Also wouldn't Damage Cap apply? After all it would be a single attack effectively. Dan Pawlowski (US2002045158) On Feb 4, 2008, at 9:09 AM, Vern Utt wrote: > I do not see why a player would not be able to conjure a shield of > two types of elements at the same time(on seperate turns), although > I would believe st discrection should limit the damage from the > shield to only one attack or damage effect. Much the same way that > two mundane weapons can be used to strike one opponent but you will > only get the effect of one weapon. IE a (really strong) character > weilds a hammer type weapon +3 bashing and a dagger +1 leathal. the > player swings both at an opponent (hes ambidexterous btw) now he > has to choose which weapon to apply as his modifier either a +1 > lethal or a +3 bashing not both or a combination of both. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/a5792efd/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 09:17:42 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:18:24 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040617g5009e8dn33f9092b970e231c@mail.gmail.com> > Also wouldn't Damage Cap apply? After all it would be a single attack > effectively. > Dan Pawlowski (US2002045158) > > In the absence of a canon rule in the book or addendum, this seems reasonable. The Damage Cap in this case would be equal to Wyrd. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/d026ccfc/attachment.html From machineiv at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 09:13:07 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:21:02 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> Vern, Have you ever read this list? "Show me in the rules where it says you can" is probably the most recurring phrase. I think the biggest argument against it is that mundane armor doesn't stack. I just wouldn't allow it, because two is as good as ten, and there's no way I'm allowing someone to conjure up 30 points of armor. On Feb 4, 2008 9:09 AM, Vern Utt wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: m0rtis > To: Rules discussion and advocacy < > cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> > Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2008 7:30:24 PM > Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the > elements furrys > > Can you quote me rules that says you can? =) > > now now, you know better than that. That statement is never an acceptable > answer. > Consider for a moment a character that has fire and air call elements. It > should be concivable for them to call both elements ,each on seperate > turns. Nice effective way for mass destruction of an area..fan the flames. > I do not see why a player would not be able to conjure a shield of two > types of elements at the same time(on seperate turns), although I would > believe st discrection should limit the damage from the shield to only one > attack or damage effect. Much the same way that two mundane weapons can be > used to strike one opponent but you will only get the effect of one weapon. > IE a (really strong) character weilds a hammer type weapon +3 bashing and a > dagger +1 leathal. the player swings both at an opponent (hes ambidexterous > btw) now he has to choose which weapon to apply as his modifier either a +1 > lethal or a +3 bashing not both or a combination of both. > > as someone else also noted regualr armor does not stack therefore it would > be prudent to not allow this type of armor to stack as well. perhaps it > would stack with worn mundane or other armor types from a different > contract, but to use the same power over and over and over again should only > give you the benifits of the specific power once other than the really cool > effect of flames and air swirling around your body like a fire tornado. > > Vern > us2002022910 > > ------------------------------ > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- -- -David A Hill Jr Domain Storyteller PA-015-D The City of Brotherly Love EC Project Assistant: Lost US2003071853 "I promise to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, that I will never accept what I am told, that I will never fall in love with safety and forget liberty. I promise that I will look for the lie in every pretty story and the bribe in every convenience." -Jim Marcus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/1f5374ac/attachment-0001.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 09:24:20 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:25:07 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040624h5e269793r855e33002d8a5cde@mail.gmail.com> > > I think the biggest argument against it is that mundane armor doesn't > stack. Not mundane armor. Apples != oranges. > I just wouldn't allow it, because two is as good as ten, and there's no > way I'm allowing someone to conjure up 30 points of armor. Is it? Cap the armor bonus from AoEF at Wyrd, just like its damage then. Using the Power Stat is a great baseline for defining the scope of supernatural powers because its A) Thematically in-line B) Mechanically plausible and balanced-ish. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/6cdaa9cb/attachment.html From machineiv at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 09:31:04 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:31:53 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040624h5e269793r855e33002d8a5cde@mail.gmail.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040624h5e269793r855e33002d8a5cde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50802040631s508371d5oa585df303c0700fc@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2008 9:24 AM, Felix Drost wrote: > I think the biggest argument against it is that mundane armor doesn't > > stack. > > > Not mundane armor. Apples != oranges. > > As far as I'm concerned, armor is armor. It's not apples and oranges, it's apples and granny smith apples. If you can only eat one apple, it shouldn't mean that you can eat two granny smith apples just because they're not the generic default kind. > I just wouldn't allow it, because two is as good as ten, and there's no > > way I'm allowing someone to conjure up 30 points of armor. > > > Is it? Cap the armor bonus from AoEF at Wyrd, just like its damage then. > But is that the cap from one use? Or is it the total cap? Being that it's not addressed, I don't really think we can safely make that statement. I'm certain there are people that would argue that a different Contract is a different power, so they should be allowed to use multiple instances together. And the argument will be, "Show me in the rules where it says you can't." -- -- -David A Hill Jr Domain Storyteller PA-015-D The City of Brotherly Love EC Project Assistant: Lost US2003071853 "I promise to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, that I will never accept what I am told, that I will never fall in love with safety and forget liberty. I promise that I will look for the lie in every pretty story and the bribe in every convenience." -Jim Marcus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/bbb48d65/attachment.html From dspawlowski at mac.com Mon Feb 4 09:31:17 2008 From: dspawlowski at mac.com (Daniel Pawlowski) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:32:09 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040613x114e319cw97a3f7d3f08432aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> <4918D5AA-8541-4546-BB7F-71BF3B738F17@mac.com> <8a3171f10802040613x114e319cw97a3f7d3f08432aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9CBE2B24-D95D-4369-899F-9D5706BEBBF4@mac.com> Is there an actual rule written somewhere about there being more Rotes than explicitly stated with-in a Spell? I must confessed if there is I've missed it. Also to correct your correction, what I've stated in reference to de- emphasis on combat applies to all of MET, not just Mage. That is the point I wished to make. With clarification on the damage, bashing into Lethal on a whim is more dangerous than Lethal into Agg w/ a Mana. I certain people more acquainted with combat will be able to correct or confirm this. Dan Pawlowski (US2002045158) On Feb 4, 2008, at 9:13 AM, Felix Drost wrote: > Thats > A) Not how the spells are written and ; > For example Rotting Flesh" is a level 4 Death Rote. If you cast it > with Mastery, you can expend a Mana to make that damage aggravated. > There is no Level 5 "Rotting Flesh" rote, this rule creates one > wholecloth. > B) Not how the rule is written; > The rule describes "effects" not damage. There under its umbrella > it does, in fact describe the examples listed. > Also, more examples- > Transform Life [Base, etc] would require different rotes for > turning a lizard into a newt, a newt to a lizard, a person to a > pig, a deer into a person, etc. > > > With the general de-emphasis on magic attempted with the MET rules > in general, I believe the requirement to expend more XP to have to > opportunity to do a "better" type of damage is a method to balance > things. > > Fixed that for you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/a965dcf3/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 09:51:16 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:51:59 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <663ff8a50802040631s508371d5oa585df303c0700fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040624h5e269793r855e33002d8a5cde@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50802040631s508371d5oa585df303c0700fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> > > As far as I'm concerned, armor is armor. It's not apples and oranges, > it's apples and granny smith apples. If you can only eat one apple, it > shouldn't mean that you can eat two granny smith apples just because they're > not the generic default kind. > So what you're trying to say is that supernatural and mundane armor shouldn't stack? Or, to be more concise, that your armor rating can only come from one source? > > I just wouldn't allow it, because two is as good as ten, and there's no > > > way I'm allowing someone to conjure up 30 points of armor. > > > > > > Is it? Cap the armor bonus from AoEF at Wyrd, just like its damage then. > > > > But is that the cap from one use? Or is it the total cap? Being that > it's not addressed, I don't really think we can safely make that statement. > I'm certain there are people that would argue that a different Contract is > a different power, so they should be allowed to use multiple instances > together. And the argument will be, "Show me in the rules where it says you > can't." > You are arguing from a position of "If its not explicitly in the rules, you cannot do it." This is a very straightforward, but unpopular position from a player standpoint. No player likes being treated like chattel, and forced into a position where the only options available to them are those explicitly spelled out in the rules. This is a game of 'creative, cooperative' storytelling, after all. On the other hand, taking the other end "you can do anything not explicitly denied" can be equally as damaging, creating abuse and strife. Because either position of "show me where you can't/can" is an untenable solution, a middle ground must be sought via Storyteller Intervention. It is vitally important that your decision as a Storyteller be well reasoned, well written, and backed up with logical arguments. Your players are likely to ask questions about your ruling, and if you can say "I did X for reasons 1,2,3 and 4, based on page 234" they will take it much better than simply saying "because I said so". At this junction, the greatest care must be used to balance three things; 1: Player Satisfaction - If the players aren't happy, they'll leave your game. 2: Rules Balance/Continuity - The ruling must be line with other rules, and be balanced to prevent abuse. 3: Setting Continuity - If the ruling disrupts the canon setting, it will interfere with the game. Your ruling is thus like a three-legged stool, with each of the above being a leg. If any one of the 'legs' is neglected, your ruling will fail. Think about this, and how you would address your ruling directly to your players. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/5cc15cd6/attachment.html From cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 09:55:06 2008 From: cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com (Cotf VST Awakening) Date: Mon Feb 4 09:59:04 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> Unfortunately, Felix, what you suggest is like a one legged stool, where only you and others who abuse this rule benefit from the one leg - leaving everyone else on the floor. Not everyone needs an armor of 30 to be happy with their character, and I'm almost insulted that you would imply that I would need to twink out my character in order to have fun in a roleplaying game. If I were convinced that you had the best interests of the venue in mind, I think this would be different. Unfortunately, your wording and implications speak very much to the contrary. James Evans US2004092015 -----Original Message----- From: cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:cam-rules-advocacy-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of Felix Drost Sent: Monday, February 04, 2008 9:51 AM To: Rules discussion and advocacy Subject: Re: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys As far as I'm concerned, armor is armor. It's not apples and oranges, it's apples and granny smith apples. If you can only eat one apple, it shouldn't mean that you can eat two granny smith apples just because they're not the generic default kind. So what you're trying to say is that supernatural and mundane armor shouldn't stack? Or, to be more concise, that your armor rating can only come from one source? I just wouldn't allow it, because two is as good as ten, and there's no way I'm allowing someone to conjure up 30 points of armor. Is it? Cap the armor bonus from AoEF at Wyrd, just like its damage then. But is that the cap from one use? Or is it the total cap? Being that it's not addressed, I don't really think we can safely make that statement. I'm certain there are people that would argue that a different Contract is a different power, so they should be allowed to use multiple instances together. And the argument will be, "Show me in the rules where it says you can't." You are arguing from a position of "If its not explicitly in the rules, you cannot do it." This is a very straightforward, but unpopular position from a player standpoint. No player likes being treated like chattel, and forced into a position where the only options available to them are those explicitly spelled out in the rules. This is a game of 'creative, cooperative' storytelling, after all. On the other hand, taking the other end "you can do anything not explicitly denied" can be equally as damaging, creating abuse and strife. Because either position of "show me where you can't/can" is an untenable solution, a middle ground must be sought via Storyteller Intervention. It is vitally important that your decision as a Storyteller be well reasoned, well written, and backed up with logical arguments. Your players are likely to ask questions about your ruling, and if you can say "I did X for reasons 1,2,3 and 4, based on page 234" they will take it much better than simply saying "because I said so". At this junction, the greatest care must be used to balance three things; 1: Player Satisfaction - If the players aren't happy, they'll leave your game. 2: Rules Balance/Continuity - The ruling must be line with other rules, and be balanced to prevent abuse. 3: Setting Continuity - If the ruling disrupts the canon setting, it will interfere with the game. Your ruling is thus like a three-legged stool, with each of the above being a leg. If any one of the 'legs' is neglected, your ruling will fail. Think about this, and how you would address your ruling directly to your players. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/53cb05b7/attachment-0001.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:00:11 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:00:54 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <9CBE2B24-D95D-4369-899F-9D5706BEBBF4@mac.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> <4918D5AA-8541-4546-BB7F-71BF3B738F17@mac.com> <8a3171f10802040613x114e319cw97a3f7d3f08432aa@mail.gmail.com> <9CBE2B24-D95D-4369-899F-9D5706BEBBF4@mac.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040700o3050eafr9b336a80ceb5e7f0@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2008 8:31 AM, Daniel Pawlowski wrote: > Is there an actual rule written somewhere about there being more Rotes > than explicitly stated with-in a Spell? I must confessed if there is I've > missed it. > Its one quoted at the top of this thread from MET-A. You know, where it says that if a spell has multiple effects, each effect must be learned as a different rote. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/8535b616/attachment.html From machineiv at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:00:18 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:01:29 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040624h5e269793r855e33002d8a5cde@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50802040631s508371d5oa585df303c0700fc@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50802040700s7f5d6a61g486c4dc921411ae7@mail.gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2008 9:51 AM, Felix Drost wrote: > As far as I'm concerned, armor is armor. It's not apples and oranges, > > it's apples and granny smith apples. If you can only eat one apple, it > > shouldn't mean that you can eat two granny smith apples just because they're > > not the generic default kind. > > > > So what you're trying to say is that supernatural and mundane armor > shouldn't stack? Or, to be more concise, that your armor rating can only > come from one source? > Absolutely. If someone has Flesh of Iron, I wouldn't let it stack with riot gear. Allowing those things leads to silliness like the 15+ Armor rating Gangrel I've seen. > > At this junction, the greatest care must be used to balance three things; > 1: Player Satisfaction - If the players aren't happy, they'll leave your > game. > 2: Rules Balance/Continuity - The ruling must be line with other rules, > and be balanced to prevent abuse. > 3: Setting Continuity - If the ruling disrupts the canon setting, it will > interfere with the game. > > Your ruling is thus like a three-legged stool, with each of the above > being a leg. If any one of the 'legs' is neglected, your ruling will fail. > > Think about this, and how you would address your ruling directly to your > players. I absolutely know how I would address it. And having consulted the player in our domain who came up with that logic, they respected the decision. My players, as a rule, dislike unstoppable uber characters. I'm pretty sure that's a rarity though, as I make a lot of rulings that are very unpopular as far as the organization as a whole is concerned. For example, we enforce learning times and waiting periods for XP, and we require rather extensive justification for anything at a 4-5 level. It sucks for our players, because any min-maxed mook who steps into our game could probably stomp every single PC, but I think my players trust me enough to give them a fun game while protecting them from those who disagree with our collective stance on making the game a strata of skill and power levels, and making people feel like they earned things. It's nice though, because then we don't have librarian characters who feel they need to have Strength and Weaponry 5 in order to interact with the story. I agree on those three elements being important. However, I think that player satisfaction is more defined as the satisfaction of those who have to put up with the guy I allowed doing these things, as opposed to the guy who gets denied the ability to do these things. The first question I ask those types is, "Why do you want to do this?" I have a pretty solid bullshit detector, and can usually tell their real reason for wanting to do it. Numerical supremacy, in my game, is never a valid answer. -- -- -David A Hill Jr Domain Storyteller PA-015-D The City of Brotherly Love EC Project Assistant: Lost US2003071853 "I promise to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, that I will never accept what I am told, that I will never fall in love with safety and forget liberty. I promise that I will look for the lie in every pretty story and the bribe in every convenience." -Jim Marcus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/b68214a4/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:03:48 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:04:31 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys In-Reply-To: <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> References: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> Totally confused, here. Also, I am offended by you implication. Projection? Maybe. > Not everyone needs an armor of 30 to be happy with their character, and > I'm almost insulted that you would imply that I would need to twink out my > character in order to have fun in a *roleplaying* game. > I never did imply this. You inferred it, however, though I will not speculate why. Furthermore, I'm not arguing for an armor of thirty. Third point - you can't roleplay a dead character well. Not an endorsement of twinkery, I'm just saying. > > If I were convinced that you had the best interests of the venue in mind, > I think this would be different. Unfortunately, your wording and > implications speak very much to the contrary > Explain your logic. Also, private email in your box. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/62b54313/attachment.html From andrewmcam at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:09:52 2008 From: andrewmcam at gmail.com (Andrew McGregor) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:10:37 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It really doesn't matter as much as you think since the most penalty you can apply defensively is 15. Defense and armor are applied as penalties and for the most part you can't get a base of defense + armor of 15 at least in tersm of natural values, so that makes a max penalty of 15 applied to an attacker. I say this because its in our addendum. I can't quote the exat line but it is in the section about modifier categories. On 2/4/08, Felix Drost wrote: > Totally confused, here. Also, I am offended by you implication. Projection? > Maybe. -- Andrew McGregor US2002021878 From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:11:00 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:11:43 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <663ff8a50802040700s7f5d6a61g486c4dc921411ae7@mail.gmail.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040624h5e269793r855e33002d8a5cde@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50802040631s508371d5oa585df303c0700fc@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50802040700s7f5d6a61g486c4dc921411ae7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040711y611d7028g66b76574ab627539@mail.gmail.com> > > Absolutely. If someone has Flesh of Iron, I wouldn't let it stack with > riot gear. Allowing those things leads to silliness like the 15+ Armor > rating Gangrel I've seen. > Last I checked, that was explicitly allowed by Global, or at least National here in the States. I can't check on it at the moment, but I am relatively sure that some Devotions, Gifts, Contracts, etc, do stack with mundane armor. You can deny it stacking and defy Global if you'd like. And if it goes over well with your players and visitors, good on you! Its a mark of a good ST when the rules become secondary to story for his players. I absolutely know how I would address it. [Snip] > Again, if those things work with your players and your visitors, good on you. Personally, though, I'm not in favor of your methods becoming baseline for the rest of the Cam, for various reasons. This is not a personal attack on you, though. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/617fa95f/attachment-0001.html From todd.branch at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:13:18 2008 From: todd.branch at gmail.com (Todd Branch) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:14:02 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61404a660802040713vacebc2dgc1af5ad52d896cce@mail.gmail.com> Question: Can you stack multiple applications of Armor of the Elements' Fury (??)? Answer: No. There is no indication that this power, either mechanically or thematically, can stack with itself. From C:TL "The character clothes himself in a frenzied and damaging manifestation of his chosen element, providing limited armor and damaging anyone who touches him." Choose an element to cloth yourself in. If you activated this a second time you would cloth yourself in another chosen element, removing the first. If anyone thinks it was the intention of the power to be stackable, if it makes mechanical sense to be stackable, and it serves game balance to be stackable then I would entertain that debate. I don't believe anyone honestly thinks the level two elemental contract should be that awesome. Todd Branch US2002021063 From dspawlowski at mac.com Mon Feb 4 10:14:55 2008 From: dspawlowski at mac.com (Daniel Pawlowski) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:15:47 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040700o3050eafr9b336a80ceb5e7f0@mail.gmail.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> <4918D5AA-8541-4546-BB7F-71BF3B738F17@mac.com> <8a3171f10802040613x114e319cw97a3f7d3f08432aa@mail.gmail.com> <9CBE2B24-D95D-4369-899F-9D5706BEBBF4@mac.com> <8a3171f10802040700o3050eafr9b336a80ceb5e7f0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0D43E402-1F4C-4855-A865-6AB9017B0596@mac.com> Thanks. I would like to point out two things in response to this. 1) The specific wording clarifies that each effect has a version of the spell. 2) Telekinetic Strike(MET-A 256) specifically states that there is more than one version of said spell. This would suggest that my interpretation is correct that unless a Spell explicitly states there are multiple versions of the Spell listed then there is just one Rote. Dan Pawlowski (US2002045158) On Feb 4, 2008, at 10:00 AM, Felix Drost wrote: > > > On Feb 4, 2008 8:31 AM, Daniel Pawlowski wrote: > Is there an actual rule written somewhere about there being more > Rotes than explicitly stated with-in a Spell? I must confessed if > there is I've missed it. > > Its one quoted at the top of this thread from MET-A. > You know, where it says that if a spell has multiple effects, each > effect must be learned as a different rote. > > Felix > US2003092300 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/18b91391/attachment.html From jonathan.argles at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:18:06 2008 From: jonathan.argles at gmail.com (Jonathan Argles) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:18:49 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040711y611d7028g66b76574ab627539@mail.gmail.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040624h5e269793r855e33002d8a5cde@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50802040631s508371d5oa585df303c0700fc@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50802040700s7f5d6a61g486c4dc921411ae7@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040711y611d7028g66b76574ab627539@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d014aea0802040718v5bad9dd9r619bb8e71c96b0e8@mail.gmail.com> "The character must use the element to attack the target. The dice pool for this attack is dex+brawl+half wyrd." Now, whereas it might be possible to spend 4 glamour to have, say, fire on one hand and ice on the other, this is not a reflexive action, meaning you can only use one at a time. As if you had a cosh in one hand and a knife in the other. You can choose which element hits, but you can't use them both in the same round. As for armor, the rule says '1 point of armor useful against all attacks'. There's nothing explicit that says they can't stack; I'll grant you, so that might work. Although I can think of better ways to spend two glamour than gaining a single point of armour. Jon A UK0006964 On Feb 4, 2008 3:11 PM, Felix Drost wrote: > > > > > > > > > Absolutely. If someone has Flesh of Iron, I wouldn't let it stack with > riot gear. Allowing those things leads to silliness like the 15+ Armor > rating Gangrel I've seen. > > > > > > Last I checked, that was explicitly allowed by Global, or at least National > here in the States. I can't check on it at the moment, but I am relatively > sure that some Devotions, Gifts, Contracts, etc, do stack with mundane > armor. > > You can deny it stacking and defy Global if you'd like. And if it goes over > well with your players and visitors, good on you! Its a mark of a good ST > when the rules become secondary to story for his players. > > > > > > > > I absolutely know how I would address it. [Snip] > > Again, if those things work with your players and your visitors, good on > you. > Personally, though, I'm not in favor of your methods becoming baseline for > the rest of the Cam, for various reasons. This is not a personal attack on > you, though. > > > Felix > US2003092300 > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > From machineiv at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:18:59 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:19:42 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50802040718k40280bdex3c996d0de82d72c2@mail.gmail.com> >Third point - you can't roleplay a dead character well. Not an endorsement of twinkery, I'm just saying. Why can't you? I see nothing wrong with a good death scene, and the opportunity to play a new character. And why do you have to be able to stack armor powers in order to have a living character? In the past year, our domain has lost exactly one PC to violent action. They, oddly enough, were Gangrel and one of only two characters in the game who had advanced to the point of Claws of the Wild. We have plenty of people who are doing just fine with basic armor or no armor at all. I regularly tell the lot of them, "No, you don't need that." When one of them has been beaten up a little, I don't let them pull arms race tactics to exceed their opponent in a fight. So I don't really see it as a problem that's as serious as it sounds. I dislike the idea of catering to the twinkery-heavy five percent. And Andrew, you're correct about the 15 thing. That's a very new factor. The number I mentioned was arbitrary. >Last I checked, that was explicitly allowed by Global, or at least National here in the States. I can't check on it at the moment, but I am relatively sure that some Devotions, Gifts, Contracts, etc, do stack with mundane armor. You can deny it stacking and defy Global if you'd like. And if it goes over well with your players and visitors, good on you! Its a mark of a good ST when the rules become secondary to story for his players. Now this I do have some problem with. I don't think it's a personal attack at all. However, there's a mentality about allowing something just because Global allows it that just doesn't jive with me. As you'll hear all over the place, everything is low approval, and that low approval is ultimately the most important approval. A low level ST making a ruling about allowing something to be used should never be considered "defying Global." Global tells us what we can allow. It's ultimately the choice of every VST out there to allow those things. I don't think that Morotrophians fit in with the style in my city, there's nothing that says I have to allow them, just because I know that they're allowed at High Approval. I know that Global has approved the special version of the Katar from Armory, there's no way I'm allowing it locally. That's a right reserved by the ST staff in our game, it should be respected. Every indication that the freedom of VST choice is to be discouraged is one step towards the things that people argue about when railing against a global organization like the Cam. It's a very popular misconception because a lot of people perpetuate it. -- -- -David A Hill Jr Domain Storyteller PA-015-D The City of Brotherly Love EC Project Assistant: Lost US2003071853 "I promise to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, that I will never accept what I am told, that I will never fall in love with safety and forget liberty. I promise that I will look for the lie in every pretty story and the bribe in every convenience." -Jim Marcus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/b33d03b0/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:23:31 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:24:15 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <0D43E402-1F4C-4855-A865-6AB9017B0596@mac.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> <4918D5AA-8541-4546-BB7F-71BF3B738F17@mac.com> <8a3171f10802040613x114e319cw97a3f7d3f08432aa@mail.gmail.com> <9CBE2B24-D95D-4369-899F-9D5706BEBBF4@mac.com> <8a3171f10802040700o3050eafr9b336a80ceb5e7f0@mail.gmail.com> <0D43E402-1F4C-4855-A865-6AB9017B0596@mac.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040723u35d32ea6ge48e3044d5dd81b3@mail.gmail.com> Thanks. I would like to point out two things in response to this. 1) The > specific wording clarifies that each effect has a version of the spell. > Yes. So "Alter Integrity - Decrease Durability" would be a separate rote from "Alter Integrity - increase Durability" according to the exact wording of the ruling. > 2) Telekinetic Strike(MET-A 256) specifically states that there is more > than one version of said spell. > Which doesn't require the rule, actually, since it spells out in the Rote that there are different versions. Makes the rule superfluous in the example listed, actually. This would suggest that my interpretation is correct that unless a Spell * > explicitly* states there are multiple versions of the Spell listed then > there is just one Rote. > Not according to the text of the rule itself. It doesn't say "if the Rote explicitly states multiple versions" it says any Rote with multiple *effects *. There is a distinct difference. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/c4c08628/attachment-0001.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:18:18 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:25:52 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys In-Reply-To: <61404a660802040713vacebc2dgc1af5ad52d896cce@mail.gmail.com> References: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> <61404a660802040713vacebc2dgc1af5ad52d896cce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040718q2d38d3cbh3ae555c71f3565d@mail.gmail.com> > Question: Can you stack multiple applications of Armor of the > Elements' Fury (??)? > Answer: Yes. There is no indication that this power, eithermechanically or thematically, cannot stack with itself. From C:TL "The character clothes himself in a frenzied and damaging > manifestation of his chosen element, providing limited armor and > damaging anyone who touches him." > Just as a person may cloth himself in a tshirt, then further clothe himself in a jacket destroys your metaphor. It says nowhere in that power that previous elemental armors are dismissed by activation of the power a second time. I would entertain that debate. > Accepted, because the Devil has me on contract. Damn law school bills. Felix US2003092300 P.S Yes, thats a Devil's Advocate joke. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/b2e78044/attachment.html From tucker.mutt at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:31:39 2008 From: tucker.mutt at gmail.com (Felix Drost) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:32:22 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elements furrys In-Reply-To: <2d014aea0802040718v5bad9dd9r619bb8e71c96b0e8@mail.gmail.com> References: <401243.92332.qm@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <663ff8a50802040613s24a45f5due5784b7392d70f2f@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040624h5e269793r855e33002d8a5cde@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50802040631s508371d5oa585df303c0700fc@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50802040700s7f5d6a61g486c4dc921411ae7@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040711y611d7028g66b76574ab627539@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0802040718v5bad9dd9r619bb8e71c96b0e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3171f10802040731g4c56eb4dg6b53c4bfb04d7f5d@mail.gmail.com> > "The character must use the element to attack the target. The dice > pool for this attack is dex+brawl+half wyrd." > Right on score. No punching for our AoEF user. Now, whereas it might be possible to spend 4 glamour to have, say, > fire on one hand and ice on the other, this is not a reflexive action, > meaning you can only use one at a time. As if you had a cosh in one > hand and a knife in the other. You can choose which element hits, but > you can't use them both in the same round. > Now you made me go and look up cosh. Thank you, wikipedia. Now, as to not using them at the same time- A) Summing AoEF is an Instant action, true. But you can spend two rounds bringing up two separate Elements. Since each lasts a scene, they are both usable. B) It says nowhere that summoning one Element precludes another. Two can be on at once. > As for armor, the rule says '1 point of armor useful against all > attacks'. There's nothing explicit that says they can't stack; I'll > grant you, so that might work. Although I can think of better ways to > spend two glamour than gaining a single point of armour. > Can't we all? Personally, though, I see AoEF as more or a combat deterrent. I wouldn't want to get in a fistfight with man sheathed in fire. Felix US2003092300 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080204/1cdda986/attachment.html From todd.branch at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:33:45 2008 From: todd.branch at gmail.com (Todd Branch) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:34:28 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys In-Reply-To: <8a3171f10802040718q2d38d3cbh3ae555c71f3565d@mail.gmail.com> References: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> <61404a660802040713vacebc2dgc1af5ad52d896cce@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040718q2d38d3cbh3ae555c71f3565d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <61404a660802040733lf700cc3k4933852eae635484@mail.gmail.com> Excellent. Your shirt/jacket example may not be the best. This would be more like putting riot gear on and then putting on another piece of riot gear. Sheathing you in an element (to me) implies you are engulfed in it. Where do you put the next manifestation of the element? Todd Branch US2002021063 On Feb 4, 2008 7:18 AM, Felix Drost wrote: > > > > Question: Can you stack multiple applications of Armor of the > > Elements' Fury (??)? > > > > Answer: Yes. There is no indication that this power, eithermechanically or > thematically, cannot stack with itself. From C:TL > > > > > "The character clothes himself in a frenzied and damaging > > manifestation of his chosen element, providing limited armor and > > damaging anyone who touches him." > > > > Just as a person may cloth himself in a tshirt, then further clothe himself > in a jacket destroys your metaphor. It says nowhere in that power that > previous elemental armors are dismissed by activation of the power a second > time. > > > > I would entertain that debate. > > > > Accepted, because the Devil has me on contract. > Damn law school bills. > > > Felix > US2003092300 > > P.S Yes, thats a Devil's Advocate joke. From mmex at digitalfreaks.org Mon Feb 4 10:34:41 2008 From: mmex at digitalfreaks.org (Mathew Monroe) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:35:23 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Same name different rotes? In-Reply-To: <0D43E402-1F4C-4855-A865-6AB9017B0596@mac.com> References: <47A42A86.6040805@digitalfreaks.org> <49ffd2240802020034sefc79e4vd362131985cf1b8f@mail.gmail.com> <47A4AE94.3030703@digitalfreaks.org> <8efd93220802022031o4bb1975by1544ffbb9f85c3cb@mail.gmail.com> <8efd93220802030749j55b7e29sfd67129d2ff39f6d@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040537v4c4dceb3td7edb3aa8c4f06ef@mail.gmail.com> <4918D5AA-8541-4546-BB7F-71BF3B738F17@mac.com> <8a3171f10802040613x114e319cw97a3f7d3f08432aa@mail.gmail.com> <9CBE2B24-D95D-4369-899F-9D5706BEBBF4@mac.com> <8a3171f10802040700o3050eafr9b336a80ceb5e7f0@mail.gmail.com> <0D43E402-1F4C-4855-A865-6AB9017B0596@mac.com> Message-ID: <47A73091.9070606@digitalfreaks.org> Daniel Pawlowski wrote: > 2) Telekinetic Strike(MET-A 256) specifically states that there is more > than one version of said spell. > Where? I am looking at it right now and can't find that. Mathew Monroe US2002034186 From machineiv at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 10:35:06 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Mon Feb 4 10:35:51 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Can you stack multiple Armor of the elementsfurrys In-Reply-To: <61404a660802040733lf700cc3k4933852eae635484@mail.gmail.com> References: <8a3171f10802040651w3ed2295co204c6e6f10b667c4@mail.gmail.com> <003f01c8673d$f0600630$6601a8c0@KDGVentures.lcl> <8a3171f10802040703w782dcf4bq41289905beb914d8@mail.gmail.com> <61404a660802040713vacebc2dgc1af5ad52d896cce@mail.gmail.com> <8a3171f10802040718q2d38d3cbh3ae555c71f3565d@mail.gmail.com> <61404a660802040733lf700cc3k4933852eae635484@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50802040735h40c51302k8f5285c2d8e3ef3a@mail.gmail.com> Or... Better analogy, wearing two condoms. At that point, you're actually protected LESS. On Feb 4, 2008 10:33 AM, Todd Branch wrote: > Excellent. > > Your shirt/jacket example may not be the best. This would be more > like putting riot gear on and then putting on another piece of riot > gear. Sheathing you in an element (to me) implies you are engulfed in > it. Where do you put the next manifestation of the element? > > Todd Branch > US2002021063 > > On Feb 4, 2008 7:18 AM, Felix Drost wrote: > > > > > > > Question: Can you stack multiple applications of Armor of the > > > Elements' Fury (??)? > > > > > > > Answer: Yes. There is no indication that this power, > eithermechanically or > > thematically, cannot stack with itself. From C:TL > > > > > > > > > "The character clothes himself in a frenzied and damaging > > > manifestation of his chosen element, providing limited armor and > > > damaging anyone who touches him." > > > > > > > Just as a person may cloth himself in a tshirt, then further clothe > himself > > in a jacket destroys your metaphor. It says nowhere in that power that > > previous elemental armors are dismissed by activation of the power a > second > > time. > > > > > > > I would entertain that debate. > > > > > > > Accepted, because the Devil has me on contract. > > Damn law school bills. > > > > > > Felix > > US2003092300 > > > > P.S Yes, thats a Devil's Advocate joke. > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- -- -David A Hill Jr Domain Storyteller PA-015-D The City of Brotherly Love EC Project Assistant: Lost US2003071853 "I promise to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable, that I will never accept what I am told, that I will never fall in love with safety and forget liberty. I promise that I will look for the lie in every pretty story and the bribe in every convenience." -Jim Marcus ------------