From brandonakana2003 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 04:08:23 2008 From: brandonakana2003 at gmail.com (Brandon Akana) Date: Wed Apr 2 04:10:57 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple Message-ID: I don't see it listed in MET anywhere, but is it possible for multiple attackers to grapple an opponent? If so, how does that mechanically work as far as the person breaking free? -- (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) ----------------------------------------- Brandon Akana US2002086518 DST Kitsap NW SRA Western WA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/5741636a/attachment.html From theevilst at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 04:25:59 2008 From: theevilst at gmail.com (Jesse Robbins) Date: Wed Apr 2 04:27:56 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> Yes, multiple people make grapple a single target. The person trying to break free, if that is what they want to do, has to overpower them one at a time. Each round they may break free of the one person's grapple. This means that unless they avoid being "re grappled" they will not be able to break free. On 4/2/08, Brandon Akana wrote: > > I don't see it listed in MET anywhere, but is it possible for multiple > attackers to grapple an opponent? If so, how does that mechanically work as > far as the person breaking free? > > -- > (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) > ----------------------------------------- > Brandon Akana > US2002086518 > DST Kitsap > NW SRA Western WA > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Jesse Robbins US2007019373 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/03a1cafd/attachment.html From brandonakana2003 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 10:36:24 2008 From: brandonakana2003 at gmail.com (Brandon Akana) Date: Wed Apr 2 10:38:09 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> References: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ...that seems too cheap to be true. If that's the case, draws providing, the guy's never gonna get an action in. You sure? On 4/2/08, Jesse Robbins wrote: > > Yes, multiple people make grapple a single target. The person trying to > break free, if that is what they want to do, has to overpower them one at a > time. Each round they may break free of the one person's > grapple. This means that unless they avoid being "re > grappled" they will not be able to break free. > > On 4/2/08, Brandon Akana wrote: > > > I don't see it listed in MET anywhere, but is it possible for multiple > > attackers to grapple an opponent? If so, how does that mechanically work as > > far as the person breaking free? > > > > -- > > (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) > > ----------------------------------------- > > Brandon Akana > > US2002086518 > > DST Kitsap > > NW SRA Western WA > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > -- > Jesse Robbins > US2007019373 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) ----------------------------------------- Brandon Akana US2002086518 DST Kitsap NW SRA Western WA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/56aa6650/attachment.html From vampricloki at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 10:43:14 2008 From: vampricloki at gmail.com (Bobby Campfield) Date: Wed Apr 2 10:45:00 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: References: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: the way my st has done it in order to prevent a few players from gaining grapples and compleatly imobilizing someone is that when more then one person tries to grapple it is treated as a healing manuver. after all how can you get a grapple on an arm? so after the first person grapples then any on else is assisting and their successes are added as a modifier to the original grapplers score. Example: joe grapples john for 3 successes with a 23 pull. now jack helps out and only gets 2 successes but that adds +2 to joe's grapple now giving him 4 grapple successes. this is based off the fact that if a mob is trying to grapple you it is hard to avoid them all. On 4/2/08, Brandon Akana wrote: > > ...that seems too cheap to be true. If that's the case, draws providing, > the guy's never gonna get an action in. > > You sure? > > > On 4/2/08, Jesse Robbins wrote: > > > > Yes, multiple people make grapple a single target. The person trying to > > break free, if that is what they want to do, has to overpower them one at a > > time. Each round they may break free of the one person's > > grapple. This means that unless they avoid being "re > > grappled" they will not be able to break free. > > > > On 4/2/08, Brandon Akana wrote: > > > > > I don't see it listed in MET anywhere, but is it possible for multiple > > > attackers to grapple an opponent? If so, how does that mechanically work as > > > far as the person breaking free? > > > > > > -- > > > (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) > > > ----------------------------------------- > > > Brandon Akana > > > US2002086518 > > > DST Kitsap > > > NW SRA Western WA > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jesse Robbins > > US2007019373 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > -- > (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) > ----------------------------------------- > Brandon Akana > US2002086518 > DST Kitsap > NW SRA Western WA > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/7fce389c/attachment-0001.html From machineiv at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 10:49:50 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Wed Apr 2 10:51:38 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change Message-ID: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> So now, you can't pickpocket from Obfsucate. You also cannot use Auspex in Obfuscate. This is a pretty dramatic change. US Addendum Alteration: Obfuscate- Any challenge by an Obfuscated character (hidden by Obfuscate 3/Obfuscate 5) that targets another character or object not carried by the Obfuscated character ends the Obfuscate unless the target is willing. -- -- -David A Hill Jr DST for PA-015-D US2003071853 "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." - JR "Bob" Dobbs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/3afb631c/attachment.html From dadvocate at diablerie.net Wed Apr 2 10:50:41 2008 From: dadvocate at diablerie.net (Paul Mysliwiec) Date: Wed Apr 2 10:52:55 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack Grapple Answer In-Reply-To: <20080402144507.724392AF28AE@cammail.white-wolf.com> References: <20080402144507.724392AF28AE@cammail.white-wolf.com> Message-ID: <0fae01c894d0$eeec6f80$ccc54e80$@net> MET Blue Book, page 219-220: "If multiple people seek to grapple a single target, and they get a hold, the target can try to break free of all holds simultaneously. Draw Strength + Brawl and subtract the highest Strength among the grapplers, with an additional penalty for each grappler after the first. So, if Anton tries to break out of a hold imposed by three opponents, and the highest Strength among them is 4, Anton's breakout draw suffers a -6 penalty." Paul Mysliwiec- US2002022052 US ANST: Rules "This ain't a scene, it's a goddamn arms race." -Fallout Boy From swiftone at swiftone.org Wed Apr 2 10:53:33 2008 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Ritter) Date: Wed Apr 2 10:55:17 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:49 AM, David Hill wrote: > So now, you can't pickpocket from Obfsucate. You also cannot use Auspex in > Obfuscate. This is a pretty dramatic change. Yup. I disagree with the change, as there are many actions that do not "bring attention to you". Heck, if I Telepathy you, you don't know who did it, but if someone appears in front of you at the same moment you feel someone crawling around your brain... BUT, the ruling itself seems pretty clear, so I agree with your statements. -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne US2003011110 swiftone@swiftone.org From sascha.krieg at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 10:54:53 2008 From: sascha.krieg at gmail.com (Jacob Soren) Date: Wed Apr 2 10:56:39 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ffd839e0804020754s13b739acmd2be8884be1d2621@mail.gmail.com> Calm down, The addendum to teh Addendum, to the Clan book will be out soon, and then they will be able to get Gangrel claws and attack as a surprise action. Who needs Auspex when you got claws! On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:49 AM, David Hill wrote: > So now, you can't pickpocket from Obfsucate. You also cannot use Auspex > in Obfuscate. This is a pretty dramatic change. > > US Addendum Alteration: Obfuscate- Any challenge by an Obfuscated > character (hidden by > Obfuscate 3/Obfuscate 5) that targets another character or object not > carried by the Obfuscated > character ends the Obfuscate unless the target is willing. > > -- > -- > -David A Hill Jr > DST for PA-015-D > US2003071853 > "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm > preaching to." - JR "Bob" Dobbs > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- OOC: Bart Us2003122656 http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Jacob_Soren "The character of a man is known from his conversations." - Menander "A god from the Machine" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/a0cd305a/attachment.html From ragabash13 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 11:09:33 2008 From: ragabash13 at gmail.com (John "Decker" Pool) Date: Wed Apr 2 11:11:16 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> It would seem like we went from the standard in the book, "Drawing attention to your self" back to the oWoD standard of interacting with your environment. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Brett Ritter wrote: > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:49 AM, David Hill wrote: > > So now, you can't pickpocket from Obfsucate. You also cannot use Auspex in > > Obfuscate. This is a pretty dramatic change. > > Yup. > > I disagree with the change, as there are many actions that do not > "bring attention to you". Heck, if I Telepathy you, you don't know > who did it, but if someone appears in front of you at the same moment > you feel someone crawling around your brain... > > BUT, the ruling itself seems pretty clear, so I agree with your statements. > -- > Brett Ritter / SwiftOne > US2003011110 > swiftone@swiftone.org > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- John "Decker" Pool DST of Denver, CO US2002022527 From us2004112380 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 11:21:01 2008 From: us2004112380 at gmail.com (US2004112380) Date: Wed Apr 2 11:22:47 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> References: Message-ID: Message-ID: <4681-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC41954DC@99.204.39.241> Wow, that's pretty intense, and I think it *substantially* reduces the efficacy of using obfuscate to spy on people. Even mundane challenges are included in this, so using empathy to see if someone is lying would break obfuscate by this wording. Also, this is the first wording around obfuscate that explicitly includes whether a subject is ''willing'' or not, so that will likely open a new hornets nest. George Vaughn US2004112380 ...... Original Message ....... On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 10:49:50 -0400 "David Hill" wrote: >So now, you can't pickpocket from Obfsucate. You also cannot use Auspex in Obfuscate. This is a pretty dramatic change. > >US Addendum Alteration: Obfuscate- Any challenge by an Obfuscated character (hidden by >Obfuscate 3/Obfuscate 5) that targets another character or object not carried by the Obfuscated >character ends the Obfuscate unless the target is willing. > >-- >-- >-David A Hill Jr >DST for PA-015-D >US2003071853 >"I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." - JR "Bob" Dobbs_______________________________________________ >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > From dspawlowski at mac.com Wed Apr 2 11:27:45 2008 From: dspawlowski at mac.com (Daniel Pawlowski) Date: Wed Apr 2 11:29:34 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> Except a bit more extreme. Seriously, any challenge not involving the character or a voluntary subject includes everything as small as trying to overhear a conversation, figure out what that smell is, or resisting certain effects like wincing at bright light. Me thinks this be a bit over kill. Dan Pawlowski (US2002045158) On Wednesday, April 02, 2008, at 11:09AM, John "Decker" Pool wrote: >It would seem like we went from the standard in the book, "Drawing >attention to your self" back to the oWoD standard of interacting with >your environment. > >On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Brett Ritter wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:49 AM, David Hill wrote: >> > So now, you can't pickpocket from Obfsucate. You also cannot use Auspex in >> > Obfuscate. This is a pretty dramatic change. >> >> Yup. >> >> I disagree with the change, as there are many actions that do not >> "bring attention to you". Heck, if I Telepathy you, you don't know >> who did it, but if someone appears in front of you at the same moment >> you feel someone crawling around your brain... >> >> BUT, the ruling itself seems pretty clear, so I agree with your statements. >> -- >> Brett Ritter / SwiftOne >> US2003011110 >> swiftone@swiftone.org >> _______________________________________________ >> Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >> Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >> http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy >> > > > >-- >John "Decker" Pool >DST of Denver, CO >US2002022527 >_______________________________________________ >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > From xne_rdx at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 11:35:20 2008 From: xne_rdx at yahoo.com (Lainn Goddard) Date: Wed Apr 2 11:37:04 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon Message-ID: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I have been watching the lists.. and a thing occured to me. Alot of people are talking about social dots like intimidation and what not. And that is fine, I have no problem with that, but i would like to re address something that was brought up a while ago... This List and others like it... tech. if you have no computers, why are you here? The addendum does not specify anything about that specific skill. Nor does the MET book. I am just saying, that this is something that kinda hit me like a mack truck. Lainn Goddard US2006129184 VST Mortals AVST Forsaken Player of: Various Characters ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/1f846335/attachment-0001.html From white-wolf at stormmage.com Wed Apr 2 11:44:36 2008 From: white-wolf at stormmage.com (Troy Lees) Date: Wed Apr 2 11:46:23 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I treat checking and reading email like driving. If you've been around, you have basic driving skill to, say, drive to work. Checking email is such a low level of skill needed that even grandmothers with absolutely no skill at all can do it. To give you an example from the real world, my uncle (who is in his 70s) called me last night to ask about a problem checking his email when he had low wireless signal. He had Internet Explorer, but whenever he went to his "Yahoo" browser, it was giving him an error. Even he can check email (well, when he has a good wireless connection). You don't need an intelligence + expression pull every time you write an email so you don't need a wits + computers check every time you want to read it. There are rules in the MET book for NOT pulling when its obvious that you should succeed. -- Troy Lees - US2007059970 Changeling VST www.soulswithoutnames.com - FL-037-D On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Lainn Goddard wrote: > I have been watching the lists.. and a thing occured to me. > Alot of people are talking about social dots like intimidation and what > not. > And that is fine, I have no problem with that, but i would like to re > address something that was brought up a while ago... > This List and others like it... tech. if you have no computers, why are > you here? The addendum does not specify anything about that specific skill. > Nor does the MET book. > > I am just saying, that this is something that kinda hit me like a mack > truck. > > > > > > Lainn Goddard US2006129184 > VST Mortals > AVST Forsaken > Player of: Various Characters > > ------------------------------ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > Total Access, > No Cost. > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/6d468580/attachment.html From dadvocate at diablerie.net Wed Apr 2 11:45:26 2008 From: dadvocate at diablerie.net (Paul Mysliwiec) Date: Wed Apr 2 11:47:39 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Calamity! Scandal! Obfuscate changes! In-Reply-To: <20080402153712.1BFC02AF3757@cammail.white-wolf.com> References: <20080402153712.1BFC02AF3757@cammail.white-wolf.com> Message-ID: <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> Overhearing conversations does not break Obfuscate. The sound waves go forth from the speaker, and the Obfuscated character hears them. That's not a targeted effect against the speaker. It's an interception of sound waves. Scrutinizing someone to see if they're lying does target the character, as you're doing something substantially different from just trying to be unobtrusive and safe. >Wow, that's pretty intense, and I think it *substantially* reduces the >efficacy of using obfuscate to spy on people. Even mundane challenges are >included in this, so using empathy to see if someone is lying would break >obfuscate by this wording. Also, this is the first wording around obfuscate >that explicitly includes whether a subject is ''willing'' or not, so that >will likely open a new hornets nest. Paul Mysliwiec- US2002022052 "This ain't a scene, it's a goddamn arms race." -Fallout Boy From swiftone at swiftone.org Wed Apr 2 11:47:32 2008 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Ritter) Date: Wed Apr 2 11:49:17 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Calamity! Scandal! Obfuscate changes! In-Reply-To: <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> References: <20080402153712.1BFC02AF3757@cammail.white-wolf.com> <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> Message-ID: <6a6bb9960804020847n1b5a7091p754612806746d7a6@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Paul Mysliwiec wrote: > Scrutinizing someone to see if they're lying does target the character, as > you're doing something substantially different from just trying to be > unobtrusive and safe. So the interpretation that a test to determine if someone is lying breaks obfuscate is correct? -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne US2003011110 swiftone@swiftone.org From machineiv at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 11:49:44 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Wed Apr 2 11:51:29 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Calamity! Scandal! Obfuscate changes! In-Reply-To: <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> References: <20080402153712.1BFC02AF3757@cammail.white-wolf.com> <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> Message-ID: <663ff8a50804020849p1d0b2a69v824179deedaf76f1@mail.gmail.com> I think that depends on your perspective and wording. You can say that overhearing a conversation doesn't break Obfuscate, but when it's referred to as, "Listening in on a conversation," it sounds much more proactive. I think we're looking at the difference of when you have to actively try to hear something, such as when two people are whispering in the corner. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Paul Mysliwiec wrote: > Overhearing conversations does not break Obfuscate. The sound waves go > forth > from the speaker, and the Obfuscated character hears them. That's not a > targeted effect against the speaker. It's an interception of sound waves. > Scrutinizing someone to see if they're lying does target the character, as > you're doing something substantially different from just trying to be > unobtrusive and safe. > > >Wow, that's pretty intense, and I think it *substantially* reduces the > >efficacy of using obfuscate to spy on people. Even mundane challenges are > >included in this, so using empathy to see if someone is lying would break > >obfuscate by this wording. Also, this is the first wording around > obfuscate > > >that explicitly includes whether a subject is ''willing'' or not, so that > >will likely open a new hornets nest. > > Paul Mysliwiec- US2002022052 > "This ain't a scene, it's a goddamn arms race." -Fallout Boy > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- -- -David A Hill Jr DST for PA-015-D US2003071853 "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." - JR "Bob" Dobbs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/9322c583/attachment.html From delwin at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:04:30 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:06:14 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: References: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20804020904g23242077n81d49cfc223f3b61@mail.gmail.com> Multiple people grappling will fall under 'teamwork' rules. David Sauter US2002021140 From delwin at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:06:46 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:08:32 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20804020906q1a230f31g8c1b67b87fbdd08d@mail.gmail.com> > US Addendum Alteration: Obfuscate- Any challenge by an Obfuscated character > (hidden by > Obfuscate 3/Obfuscate 5) that targets another character or object not > carried by the Obfuscated > character ends the Obfuscate unless the target is willing. ... how does this interact with Vanish? David Sauter US2002021140 From machineiv at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:07:39 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:09:24 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <945cfca20804020906q1a230f31g8c1b67b87fbdd08d@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20804020906q1a230f31g8c1b67b87fbdd08d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50804020907l5f5e30ddv2fdac43878c1e1d9@mail.gmail.com> What's Vanish? On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:06 PM, David Sauter wrote: > > US Addendum Alteration: Obfuscate- Any challenge by an Obfuscated > character > > (hidden by > > Obfuscate 3/Obfuscate 5) that targets another character or object not > > carried by the Obfuscated > > character ends the Obfuscate unless the target is willing. > > ... how does this interact with Vanish? > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- -- -David A Hill Jr DST for PA-015-D US2003071853 "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." - JR "Bob" Dobbs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/84951b1e/attachment-0001.html From ladylucksman at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:08:24 2008 From: ladylucksman at gmail.com (Travis McLaughlin) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:10:14 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> Message-ID: <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Daniel Pawlowski wrote: > Except a bit more extreme. Seriously, any challenge not involving the > character or a voluntary subject includes everything as small as trying to > overhear a conversation, figure out what that smell is, or resisting certain > effects like wincing at bright light. Me thinks this be a bit over kill. > Well technically it says targetting something else, so since a conversation isn't an object in a strict sense of the word... Though I'm not sure I understand any possible logic for saying using Auspex 1 to see other obfuscated people breaks obfuscate. Thank God for the Mind of the Unblinking Hyrda, since that targets my own perceptions I can at least know other people are hiding, even if I can't see them!! Yeah, gotta say, this one seemed like a pretty decent idea to prevent some abuse, but I have to -strongly- disagree with the execution. -- Travis McLaughlin US2007059925 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/295a87a7/attachment.html From amst.awakening at googlemail.com Wed Apr 2 12:11:11 2008 From: amst.awakening at googlemail.com (Kevin Drugan - AMST Awakening) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:12:55 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: <945cfca20804020904g23242077n81d49cfc223f3b61@mail.gmail.com> References: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20804020904g23242077n81d49cfc223f3b61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16e8d0ab0804020911o4be79697o85d0da784c068b8@mail.gmail.com> MET actually has specific rules for multiple grapples that are different than the teamwork rules. On 02/04/2008, David Sauter wrote: > Multiple people grappling will fall under 'teamwork' rules. > > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Kevin Drugan UK98040591 AMST Awakening (outgoing) From jennnger at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:13:36 2008 From: jennnger at gmail.com (Jennger) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:15:22 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: <945cfca20804020904g23242077n81d49cfc223f3b61@mail.gmail.com> References: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20804020904g23242077n81d49cfc223f3b61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Where are the teamwork rules? - Jenn Stoltz Us2007019300 On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:04 AM, David Sauter wrote: > Multiple people grappling will fall under 'teamwork' rules. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/46b6932c/attachment.html From andrewmcam at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:16:23 2008 From: andrewmcam at gmail.com (Andrew McGregor) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:18:08 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: References: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20804020904g23242077n81d49cfc223f3b61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Page 180 MET book. A section appropriaetly titled "TEAMWORK" On 4/2/08, Jennger wrote: > Where are the teamwork rules? > > - Jenn Stoltz > Us2007019300 > > -- Andrew McGregor US2002021878 From delwin at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:16:22 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:18:22 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: References: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20804020904g23242077n81d49cfc223f3b61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20804020916t5bbea627p4321d73f35351089@mail.gmail.com> Huh, MET special cased these. That's... no, not going to go there. Anyway I'm wrong on this one there's a special case for this. Paul posted it in another thread. David Sauter US2002021140 On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:13 AM, Jennger wrote: > Where are the teamwork rules? > > - Jenn Stoltz > Us2007019300 > > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:04 AM, David Sauter wrote: > > > > > > > > > Multiple people grappling will fall under 'teamwork' rules. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- ------ David S From andrewmcam at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:17:58 2008 From: andrewmcam at gmail.com (Andrew McGregor) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:19:42 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Stack grapple In-Reply-To: References: <320fa9170804020125w28d8e737h7886d460ce3f4edc@mail.gmail.com> <945cfca20804020904g23242077n81d49cfc223f3b61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Oops. Sory if that came off as sarcastic or mean. Not intended to be that way. On 4/2/08, Andrew McGregor wrote: > Page 180 MET book. A section appropriaetly titled "TEAMWORK" > > On 4/2/08, Jennger wrote: > > Where are the teamwork rules? > > > > - Jenn Stoltz > > Us2007019300 > > > > > > > -- > Andrew McGregor > US2002021878 > -- Andrew McGregor US2002021878 From SHinds at fruit.com Wed Apr 2 12:18:07 2008 From: SHinds at fruit.com (SHinds@fruit.com) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:19:52 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I can understand Obfuscate breaking when you interact with the environment such as a pickpocket attempt, moving things, or opening doors and such. But, having it break when you are trying the use non-envirnoment affecting things such as empathy or trying figure out if someone is lying seems ridiculous. I mean if that is the case then you could almost extrapolate that to the point that it is impossible to maintain an obfuscate. Thank you for your time. sam Member: Samuel Hinds Membership Number: US2007101091 We are not here for a long time, we are here for a good time. - Mexican Proverb ********************************************************************** This communication contains information which is confidential and may also be privileged. It is for the exclusive use of the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipient(s), please note that any distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and then destroy any copies of it. ********************************************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/7dc00cbd/attachment-0001.html From genialfailure at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:21:04 2008 From: genialfailure at gmail.com (Alex McConachie) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:23:05 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Calamity! Scandal! Obfuscate changes! In-Reply-To: <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> References: <20080402153712.1BFC02AF3757@cammail.white-wolf.com> <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Paul Mysliwiec wrote: > Overhearing conversations does not break Obfuscate. The sound waves go > forth > from the speaker, and the Obfuscated character hears them. That's not a > targeted effect against the speaker. It's an interception of sound waves. > Scrutinizing someone to see if they're lying does target the character, as > you're doing something substantially different from just trying to be > unobtrusive and safe. > So, that Mekhet waiting to see if you attack someone remains obfuscated, but one who makes an Empathy check to interpret if you are about to attack suddenly becomes visible. You can take in information, but not interpret it. I understand wanting to avoid this or that specific exception and keep things simple. I also understand curbing obfuscated people using Animalism 5 to frenzy enemies or bloodline wooj to otherwise attack them. PCs will just have to make their undetectable attacks while in a crowd from across the room. But it would seem reasonable to state "supernatural challenges" or even "supernatural attacks". For instance, is being able to use Aura Perception from Obfuscate really something that has damaged the game? This seems rather different from how Obfuscate functions in the book, where you have to do things like punch someone, scream, or throw a brick through a window for it to break. I'd actually kind of assumed it was an April Fool's Day prank and was waiting for an announcement about how Majesty 3 breaks if you follow it with Dominate 2, and for Sovereignty to break if you follow it by turning to mist or using Dread. It would seem reasonable that if Obfuscate breaks by using an subtle challenge, than Entrancement breaks from initiating any challenge also. I'm sorry if this still sounds snarky; I've attempted to edit to reduce the things I find absurd and hilarious. Alex McConachie US2004112348 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/83c21a3c/attachment.html From ragabash13 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:54:13 2008 From: ragabash13 at gmail.com (John "Decker" Pool) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:55:57 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> > Well technically it says targetting something else, so since a conversation > isn't an object in a strict sense of the word... > > Though I'm not sure I understand any possible logic for saying using Auspex > 1 to see other obfuscated people breaks obfuscate. Thank God for the Mind > of the Unblinking Hyrda, since that targets my own perceptions I can at > least know other people are hiding, even if I can't see them!! > > Yeah, gotta say, this one seemed like a pretty decent idea to prevent some > abuse, but I have to -strongly- disagree with the execution.-- I wasn't aware there was abuse in the first place. -- John "Decker" Pool DST of Denver, CO US2002022527 From ladylucksman at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 12:57:46 2008 From: ladylucksman at gmail.com (Travis McLaughlin) Date: Wed Apr 2 12:59:35 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:54 PM, John Decker Pool wrote: > I wasn't aware there was abuse in the first place. > I'm sure there was obfuscate abuse. Not sure I've ever seen it first hand, but I'm sure it's there :) -- Travis McLaughlin US2007059925 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/1caf17f8/attachment.html From ricochet666 at juno.com Wed Apr 2 12:58:36 2008 From: ricochet666 at juno.com (ricochet666@juno.com) Date: Wed Apr 2 13:02:13 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change Message-ID: <20080402.095836.1721.0@webmail20.vgs.untd.com> So, here is my question. It seems that the clarification on obfuscate in the US addendum doesn't make a lot of sense as it is making it so that things that normally wouldn't draw attention to someone who is obfuscated now will. And from what I have read, a "few" people agree with me. Is there anything we can do to change this? I mean, if you make your Larceny check to pickpocket someone and they don't know you did it, you haven't drawn any attention to yourself. Of course, with that logic, and this clarification, your obfuscate would drop, but no one would see you there as you didn't truly draw attention to yourself and then you can just reactivate it right away without anyone being the wiser. And as for not being able to use telepathy, that just doesn't seem right as the person who is getting broken into has no idea where the person is who is doing it. And even if they do find out who is doing it, they still don't automatically know where you are. I think drawing attention to yourself should mean what is has ALWAYS meant in the past, doing something to actually make someone look at you. If you can do a test of some sort to pick a pocket and you get 5 successes because you are that cool and everyone in the room draws a 1 to notice you, therefore automatically failing, you're Obfuscate shouldn't drop. -Richard Pruiett- US2002021210 Tri-Cities DST WA-076-D _____________________________________________________________ Save up to 10% - 30% getting Motorcycle Insurance direct. Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/REAK6aAXgUWIhYPzOdtxlQxwpMTp5OOBP0MMbTQypYmRKxOEIeN9hz/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/84af2310/attachment.html From swiftone at swiftone.org Wed Apr 2 13:01:23 2008 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Ritter) Date: Wed Apr 2 13:03:08 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Calamity! Scandal! Obfuscate changes! In-Reply-To: References: <20080402153712.1BFC02AF3757@cammail.white-wolf.com> <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> Message-ID: <6a6bb9960804021001j56798400pe6d24790e82f6bec@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Alex McConachie wrote: > I understand wanting to avoid this or that specific exception and keep > things simple. I also understand curbing obfuscated people using Animalism > 5 to frenzy enemies I don't actually get that. If everyone is visible I don't know who used the power on me, why is invisiblity suddenly different? (invisiblity is actually unnoticeability, but still. If I confuse your mind to not notice, it shouldn't notice that I've done an unnoticeable attack) -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne US2003011110 swiftone@swiftone.org From swiftone at swiftone.org Wed Apr 2 13:04:14 2008 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Ritter) Date: Wed Apr 2 13:05:58 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <20080402.095836.1721.0@webmail20.vgs.untd.com> References: <20080402.095836.1721.0@webmail20.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <6a6bb9960804021004o11db049dj16a7a1a4a14b1d0f@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:58 PM, ricochet666@juno.com wrote: > now will. And from what I have read, a "few" people agree with me. Is > there anything we can do to change this? Normally the answer is to send your concerns up the ST chain. The NST (and ANSTs) take the opinions of the RSTs in mind, who take the opinions of th DSTs and VSTs in mind, plus they'll all consider player opinions. -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne US2003011110 swiftone@swiftone.org From ragabash13 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 13:07:59 2008 From: ragabash13 at gmail.com (John "Decker" Pool) Date: Wed Apr 2 13:09:44 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <584cf3b00804021007r36815275w53bdfce245873bea@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Travis McLaughlin wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:54 PM, John Decker Pool > wrote: > > > > > I wasn't aware there was abuse in the first place. > > > I'm sure there was obfuscate abuse. Not sure I've ever seen it first hand, > but I'm sure it's there :) Is there potential for using it creatively? Yes. You can obfuscate and attempt to pick someones pocket or relieve them of light weaponry. Or you can get the same results with Dominate ("give me your wallet/knife") Or mundane stealth Sure you can read someones mind or aura, but since Telepathy has a built in "Someone in my head" check, it results in being no different than simply doing it across a room, through a window, or hiding in an air vent. The only real abusive thing I can think of would be using Leash the Beast to cause someone from frenzy, but a far superior fix to that potential problem would be adding in a clause that requires the target to be able to sense you to use that power, rather then making a broad sweeping change to how a power works. -- John "Decker" Pool DST of Denver, CO US2002022527 From genialfailure at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 13:33:16 2008 From: genialfailure at gmail.com (Alex McConachie) Date: Wed Apr 2 13:35:06 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:57 AM, Travis McLaughlin wrote: > > > I'm sure there was obfuscate abuse. Not sure I've ever seen it first > hand, but I'm sure it's there :) > > Not to move too far from the point, but there is, of course, always abuse. And I would actually love for more clarifications on how some disciplines are supposed to function, there is a lot of confusion out there on simple things from the base book. For instance, "directing" a frenzy with Animalism 5. Determining the difference between "abuse" and "advantage" however, is a little tougher. And even if it is abuse, determining how detrimental something is to the game is a wholly different matter. Especially since the general idea seems to be to have minimal changes made only out of absolute necessity. I could be incorrect in that assumption, however. I'm still just highly amused by imaging other powers that traditionally break when you attack someone and how by applying this new version of the idea of "a targeted challenge" to those disciplines you could then never use Aura Perception with anything. For instance, Dread: "I was deeply unsettled by his presence until he started looking at me funny, then, meh, everything was comfy again." Sovereignty: "The dark and stormy stare he gave me was so terrifying as to negate even the thought of defiance, until his eyes narrowed just that little bit more when he tried to perceive my aura. The thought of someone guessing my emotional state was so offensive that I easily threw off his Majesty and beat the tar out of him." Entrancement: "Well, usually I can't tell the difference between someone staring at me 'cause I'm awesome, and someone trying to read my aura, but that guy, I didn't like him, then I suddenly liked him, then he looked at me for a couple seconds straight and I suddenly didn't like him anymore, so I bet he used Aura Perception. That or Dominate." In all seriousness, if you're in combat, win your Obfuscate pull, and then beat down someone's Willpower or other stats with largely undetectable bloodline or devotion wooj for a couple rounds while they just sit and take it, I could see a problem. Using Touch of Shadow to snarf something on a desk though? Secretly snooping on a conversation and verifying whether they are being deceptive (which they almost always are according to Aura Perception)? Hell, even Telepathy, to get anything useful for any period of time requires tons of Willpower. Most things out the base book aren't that bad if they are enforced properly. Also, on another silly note; climbing over a wall would usually require a challenge. Is it a challenge against the wall and therefore breaks Obfuscate? Alex McConachie US2004112348 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/24b5567f/attachment.html From genialfailure at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 13:45:17 2008 From: genialfailure at gmail.com (Alex McConachie) Date: Wed Apr 2 13:47:03 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Calamity! Scandal! Obfuscate changes! In-Reply-To: <6a6bb9960804021001j56798400pe6d24790e82f6bec@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080402153712.1BFC02AF3757@cammail.white-wolf.com> <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> <6a6bb9960804021001j56798400pe6d24790e82f6bec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Brett Ritter wrote: > > I don't actually get that. If everyone is visible I don't know who > used the power on me, why is invisiblity suddenly different? > > (invisiblity is actually unnoticeability, but still. If I confuse > your mind to not notice, it shouldn't notice that I've done an > unnoticeable attack) > ** > I sort of referred to this on the other thread. The difference is that you can initiate combat, obfuscate, and then do some fairly nasty stuff. While I personally feel that is sort of assumed in the power, I can understand an ST saying "No, that is unbalanced". And yeah, everyone gets confused about the invisibility versus unnoticibility. Hence, why a crowd will move around an obfuscated person. So a more realistic ruling would be that if you're using a power and are the only person in the room, or are obvious, it might break obfuscate. Or, really, just say that all attacks break it. Somehow you just know. Though, really, obfuscated guy undetectably frenzying 5 people in a room of 30 and non-obfuscated guy undetectably frenzying 5 people in a room of 30 are not really all that different. Non-obfuscated guy is now a possible suspect, sure, but obfuscated-guy is far more screwed if someone wins Clash of Wills. Much why walking up and grabbing something in front of everyone, even with Touch of Shadow, should break obfuscate, but making a successful Larceny pull should not, because since they would not have noticed anyway, you remain in your pleasantly ignored state. I would also disagree with a version of the rule where obfuscate breaks when using usually undetectable attacks, however, I'd be far more willing to accept it, since I can see the point. Not that simply saying, "The person sent into frenzy knows who used this power" wouldn't already solve that particular issue. Alex McConachie US2004112348 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/dde3c48f/attachment.html From dev_null at ryusenkai.org Wed Apr 2 14:24:33 2008 From: dev_null at ryusenkai.org (Zarli Win) Date: Wed Apr 2 14:26:18 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: References: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <774d2ff0804021124s22700d9ej5118ad4dab79c01e@mail.gmail.com> To a certain degree i think it is true, but at a certain point i think the staticness of vampires needs to start playing in. I've seen a vampire who was 300 years old, intelligence 1, and zero computers on IRC. There should be limits. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 5:44 AM, Troy Lees wrote: > I treat checking and reading email like driving. If you've been around, > you have basic driving skill to, say, drive to work. Checking email is such > a low level of skill needed that even grandmothers with absolutely no skill > at all can do it. To give you an example from the real world, my uncle (who > is in his 70s) called me last night to ask about a problem checking his > email when he had low wireless signal. He had Internet Explorer, but > whenever he went to his "Yahoo" browser, it was giving him an error. Even > he can check email (well, when he has a good wireless connection). You > don't need an intelligence + expression pull every time you write an email > so you don't need a wits + computers check every time you want to read it. > There are rules in the MET book for NOT pulling when its obvious that you > should succeed. > > -- > Troy Lees - US2007059970 > Changeling VST > www.soulswithoutnames.com - FL-037-D > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:35 AM, Lainn Goddard wrote: > > > I have been watching the lists.. and a thing occured to me. > > Alot of people are talking about social dots like intimidation and what > > not. > > And that is fine, I have no problem with that, but i would like to re > > address something that was brought up a while ago... > > This List and others like it... tech. if you have no computers, why are > > you here? The addendum does not specify anything about that specific skill. > > Nor does the MET book. > > > > I am just saying, that this is something that kinda hit me like a mack > > truck. > > > > > > > > > > > > Lainn Goddard US2006129184 > > VST Mortals > > AVST Forsaken > > Player of: Various Characters > > > > ------------------------------ > > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > > Total Access, > > No Cost. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > D O T E A S Y - "Join the web hosting revolution!" > http://www.doteasy.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Zarli Win US7773B4B4 ADC: Special Projects, Hawaii Six Unwritten Rules of the Cam(learn them): http://www.archive.org/details/RadioDeadAir-TheSixUnwrittenRulesOfTheCam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/62bd9251/attachment.html From theevilst at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 14:41:15 2008 From: theevilst at gmail.com (Jesse Robbins) Date: Wed Apr 2 14:43:02 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Did the US addendum just pull out the section of Modifiers? Message-ID: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' a single trait at a time. Only the most powerful effect takes effect. The only exception this is powers within a single power set, such as Vigor or the Contract of Stone. Example: Bob the Carthian receives the benefit of Palms of Blood (Stigmatica 2) with 5 successes (+5 Strength). He then takes a Sanguine Strength 3 Spoiling potion. Only the Stigmatica takes effect. If the Stigmatica effect is somehow removed before the Sanguine Strength potion expires, then that potion would be in effect for its remaining duration. Remember this? It's gone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/f40cebf9/attachment-0001.html From machineiv at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 14:45:37 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Wed Apr 2 14:47:24 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Did the US addendum just pull out the section of Modifiers? In-Reply-To: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> References: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50804021145h3074dcd9l5af6194f9cb907fb@mail.gmail.com> Amen. Best and most important change for the less minmaxed characters of the chronicle. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Jesse Robbins wrote: > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' a > single > trait at a time. Only the most powerful effect takes effect. The only > exception this is > powers within a single power set, such as Vigor or the Contract of Stone. > Example: Bob the Carthian receives the benefit of Palms of Blood > (Stigmatica 2) > with 5 successes (+5 Strength). He then takes a Sanguine Strength 3 > Spoiling potion. > Only the Stigmatica takes effect. If the Stigmatica effect is somehow > removed before > the Sanguine Strength potion expires, then that potion would be in effect > for its > remaining duration. > > > > Remember this? It's gone. > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- -- -David A Hill Jr DST for PA-015-D US2003071853 "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." - JR "Bob" Dobbs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/2ed63e22/attachment.html From rulesninja at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 14:45:06 2008 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Wed Apr 2 14:47:26 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Did the US addendum just pull out the section of Modifiers? In-Reply-To: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> References: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240804021145p4d80d1ccte75c06c1ae138fc9@mail.gmail.com> Yes. It was removed. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Jesse Robbins wrote: > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' a > single > trait at a time. Only the most powerful effect takes effect. The only > exception this is > powers within a single power set, such as Vigor or the Contract of Stone. > Example: Bob the Carthian receives the benefit of Palms of Blood > (Stigmatica 2) > with 5 successes (+5 Strength). He then takes a Sanguine Strength 3 > Spoiling potion. > Only the Stigmatica takes effect. If the Stigmatica effect is somehow > removed before > the Sanguine Strength potion expires, then that potion would be in effect > for its > remaining duration. > > > > Remember this? It's gone. > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC http://www.cam-wiki.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/7d253a8c/attachment.html From delwin at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 14:43:56 2008 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Wed Apr 2 14:47:56 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Did the US addendum just pull out the section of Modifiers? In-Reply-To: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> References: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20804021143q6c3db753h38bd3ff9080cc656@mail.gmail.com> Good. I would suggest looking over at Changeling and see if they've fixed the things there that caused that section in the first place. David Sauter US200202140 On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Jesse Robbins wrote: > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' a > single > trait at a time. Only the most powerful effect takes effect. The only > exception this is > powers within a single power set, such as Vigor or the Contract of Stone. > Example: Bob the Carthian receives the benefit of Palms of Blood > (Stigmatica 2) > with 5 successes (+5 Strength). He then takes a Sanguine Strength 3 Spoiling > potion. > Only the Stigmatica takes effect. If the Stigmatica effect is somehow > removed before > the Sanguine Strength potion expires, then that potion would be in effect > for its > remaining duration. > > > > Remember this? It's gone. > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- ------ David S From nickooc at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 15:16:36 2008 From: nickooc at gmail.com (Nicholas Jacob) Date: Wed Apr 2 15:18:21 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> When I read this I suspect poor wording, but even if our worst fears *are*what they mean the ramifications aren't quite what is being described on this list. Picking an item up from a desk doesn't require a pull unless people are watching the item (which would draw attention to yourself anyway). Perceptive abilities don't interact with anything. I *do* however have harsh feelings about the idea that I can't use the Empathy Skill or Aura Perception from Obfuscate. Nicholas Jacob ADST Chief of Staff US2007039607 in OH-010-D -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/646e4e15/attachment.html From dsxmachina at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 15:18:16 2008 From: dsxmachina at gmail.com (dsxmachina) Date: Wed Apr 2 15:20:02 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9ba15fcb0804021218x26a7dbb6kdfd2c7b4a5d65bbd@mail.gmail.com> Someone must of lost a character to someone Auspexing them from Obfuscate. ;) On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Nicholas Jacob wrote: > When I read this I suspect poor wording, but even if our worst fears *are*what they mean the ramifications aren't quite what is being described on > this list. Picking an item up from a desk doesn't require a pull unless > people are watching the item (which would draw attention to yourself > anyway). Perceptive abilities don't interact with anything. I *do* however > have harsh feelings about the idea that I can't use the Empathy Skill or > Aura Perception from Obfuscate. > > Nicholas Jacob > ADST Chief of Staff > US2007039607 in OH-010-D > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Micheal Smith US2005012642 A-VST Forsaken OH-010-D A-DST Media OH-010-D "Whenever I feel blue, I start to breath again" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/fe1397b4/attachment.html From sebastian_dante_valentine at hotmail.com Wed Apr 2 15:57:43 2008 From: sebastian_dante_valentine at hotmail.com (Lee Holstein) Date: Wed Apr 2 15:59:28 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Calamity! Scandal! Obfuscate changes! In-Reply-To: <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> References: <20080402153712.1BFC02AF3757@cammail.white-wolf.com> <0fda01c894d8$94e63220$beb29660$@net> Message-ID: So basically because Im thinking to myself, hmmm...is this guy lying, because Im thinking (possibly to loud?), I break ob...this rules wording needs to be seriously reconsidered... Lee Holstein (Cute Blue-Haired Guy)US2002045184 VST Requiem NEOdom OH-020-D The Ghetto ElfThe Anarchist Congressman"F*ck-Nugget" #1"Oh F*ck, Not Another Elf !"-Hugo Dyson on being read a manuscript by J.R.R. Tolkien> From: dadvocate@diablerie.net> To: cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 11:45:26 -0400> Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Calamity! Scandal! Obfuscate changes!> > Overhearing conversations does not break Obfuscate. The sound waves go forth> from the speaker, and the Obfuscated character hears them. That's not a> targeted effect against the speaker. It's an interception of sound waves.> Scrutinizing someone to see if they're lying does target the character, as> you're doing something substantially different from just trying to be> unobtrusive and safe.> > >Wow, that's pretty intense, and I think it *substantially* reduces the > >efficacy of using obfuscate to spy on people. Even mundane challenges are > >included in this, so using empathy to see if someone is lying would break > >obfuscate by this wording. Also, this is the first wording around obfuscate> > >that explicitly includes whether a subject is ''willing'' or not, so that > >will likely open a new hornets nest.> > Paul Mysliwiec- US2002022052> "This ain't a scene, it's a goddamn arms race." -Fallout Boy> > > _______________________________________________> Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list> Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com> http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy _________________________________________________________________ Use video conversation to talk face-to-face with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/connect_your_way.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_video_042008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/255bc94e/attachment-0001.html From ww at thejamin.com Wed Apr 2 16:45:51 2008 From: ww at thejamin.com (Jamin Pursell) Date: Wed Apr 2 16:47:37 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <774d2ff0804021124s22700d9ej5118ad4dab79c01e@mail.gmail.com> References: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <774d2ff0804021124s22700d9ej5118ad4dab79c01e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <15D7A381-EC53-4386-97B7-C0EC1726FE6D@thejamin.com> Then again there are those of us with Computers 5 and high int and still we think the lists and IRC are boring as all hell. I know that I as a person in my real life would hate to spend my time wasting it online babbling when i could be playing WoW or reading a book or watching a movie. I figure my vampire and other chars also find rambling online as a sport equivalent to shouting at the TV. To sum it up i disagree there needs to be limits based on skills or anything cause if people like to do the lists and IRC they should cause even with the skills it is interests that drives those mediums. > To a certain degree i think it is true, but at a certain point i > think the staticness of vampires needs to start playing in. I've > seen a vampire who was 300 years old, intelligence 1, and zero > computers on IRC. There should be limits. Jamin Pursell US2002127064 From dev_null at ryusenkai.org Wed Apr 2 17:14:19 2008 From: dev_null at ryusenkai.org (Zarli Win) Date: Wed Apr 2 17:16:05 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <15D7A381-EC53-4386-97B7-C0EC1726FE6D@thejamin.com> References: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <774d2ff0804021124s22700d9ej5118ad4dab79c01e@mail.gmail.com> <15D7A381-EC53-4386-97B7-C0EC1726FE6D@thejamin.com> Message-ID: <774d2ff0804021414k2c23288cwff51672a0a0e3957@mail.gmail.com> To me, if they want to go on the internet, then they should have to learn the skill, just like if they want to make a katana, they shoudl have the craft skill. it's not expensive to learn.. i just would like to see the actions of a character make sense with his/her concept and stats. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Jamin Pursell wrote: > Then again there are those of us with Computers 5 and high int and still > we think the lists and IRC are boring as all hell. I know that I as a > person in my real life would hate to spend my time wasting it online > babbling when i could be playing WoW or reading a book or watching a movie. > I figure my vampire and other chars also find rambling online as a sport > equivalent to shouting at the TV. To sum it up i disagree there needs to be > limits based on skills or anything cause if people like to do the lists and > IRC they should cause even with the skills it is interests that drives those > mediums. -- Zarli Win US7773B4B4 ADC: Special Projects, Hawaii Six Unwritten Rules of the Cam(learn them): http://www.archive.org/details/RadioDeadAir-TheSixUnwrittenRulesOfTheCam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/71f65e37/attachment.html From ragabash13 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 17:25:52 2008 From: ragabash13 at gmail.com (John "Decker" Pool) Date: Wed Apr 2 17:27:38 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <774d2ff0804021414k2c23288cwff51672a0a0e3957@mail.gmail.com> References: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <774d2ff0804021124s22700d9ej5118ad4dab79c01e@mail.gmail.com> <15D7A381-EC53-4386-97B7-C0EC1726FE6D@thejamin.com> <774d2ff0804021414k2c23288cwff51672a0a0e3957@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <584cf3b00804021425j476d66a1v97407751645acfa6@mail.gmail.com> In fairness, I could make a katana despite having no training or even picking up one from Japan. It's a question of quality. Given a katana that I made myself or a pointy stick in a fight, I think I'd go with the stick. :) There are some things that can be done without having a level of skill. Checking your email or going into chatrooms can be done without having a dot in computers. Singing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star doesn't require expression. Driving in normal traffic with the flow of other traffic doesn't require drive. While I agree with the sentiment, it would require basicly a character check in process every time you got on a list or logged into IRC. I think it just works better for people to use their own best judgement even if on occasion someone isn't using the same logic the rest of us are. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Zarli Win wrote: > To me, if they want to go on the internet, then they should have to learn > the skill, just like if they want to make a katana, they shoudl have the > craft skill. it's not expensive to learn.. i just would like to see the > actions of a character make sense with his/her concept and stats. > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Jamin Pursell wrote: > > Then again there are those of us with Computers 5 and high int and still > we think the lists and IRC are boring as all hell. I know that I as a > person in my real life would hate to spend my time wasting it online > babbling when i could be playing WoW or reading a book or watching a movie. > I figure my vampire and other chars also find rambling online as a sport > equivalent to shouting at the TV. To sum it up i disagree there needs to be > limits based on skills or anything cause if people like to do the lists and > IRC they should cause even with the skills it is interests that drives those > mediums. > > > > -- > Zarli Win > US7773B4B4 > ADC: Special Projects, Hawaii > Six Unwritten Rules of the Cam(learn them): > http://www.archive.org/details/RadioDeadAir-TheSixUnwrittenRulesOfTheCam > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- John "Decker" Pool DST of Denver, CO US2002022527 From richardhussey42 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 17:28:43 2008 From: richardhussey42 at gmail.com (Richard Hussey) Date: Wed Apr 2 17:30:29 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <15D7A381-EC53-4386-97B7-C0EC1726FE6D@thejamin.com> References: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <774d2ff0804021124s22700d9ej5118ad4dab79c01e@mail.gmail.com> <15D7A381-EC53-4386-97B7-C0EC1726FE6D@thejamin.com> Message-ID: <75a02b470804021428r68f778f2rcbe88a4c133364a9@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Jamin Pursell wrote: > Then again there are those of us with Computers 5 and high int and still we > think the lists and IRC are boring as all hell. I know that I as a person > in my real life would hate to spend my time wasting it online babbling when > i could be playing WoW or reading a book or watching a movie. I figure my > vampire and other chars also find rambling online as a sport equivalent to > shouting at the TV. To sum it up i disagree there needs to be limits based > on skills or anything cause if people like to do the lists and IRC they > should cause even with the skills it is interests that drives those mediums. I fail to see why having Computer or Intelligence at high levels would make one not want to read lists. Without sounding too arrogant, I have both of those, and yet here I am... ;) R. -- Yours, Richard Hussey UK 0701-1705 VC London Promethean - http://promethean.cam-wiki.org/index.php/London VC Inverness Changeling - http://changeling.cam-wiki.org/index.php/Dunasheen Character wikis can be found at http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Richard_Hussey From sascha.krieg at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 17:38:30 2008 From: sascha.krieg at gmail.com (Jacob Soren) Date: Wed Apr 2 17:40:14 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <75a02b470804021428r68f778f2rcbe88a4c133364a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <774d2ff0804021124s22700d9ej5118ad4dab79c01e@mail.gmail.com> <15D7A381-EC53-4386-97B7-C0EC1726FE6D@thejamin.com> <75a02b470804021428r68f778f2rcbe88a4c133364a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ffd839e0804021438l698aa57cy3bcd6933c1ff1bc9@mail.gmail.com> You put a smiley face so I wont' slam you. I see where Zarli is coming from. Basically Vamp's are supposed to be pretty static individuals that do not change with the passing of time. They wer supposed t be pretty much stuck in the same old ways that reflect the time frame they were embraced in. This isn't the case with an insane amount of folks out there. There are 300 year old Steam Engineer's that are debating "The Matrix" ICly with other characters right now. Honestly why would a 300 year old vampire honestly EVER care about The Matrix? I think the big problem that folks who scream for realism and cannon have, is that we as normal folks cannot imagine the horrendous boredom or tedium that comes from every day dying, waking up, feeding, making sure your friends didn't sell you out, dying, waking up, rinse repeat ad infinitum. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Richard Hussey wrote: > > I fail to see why having Computer or Intelligence at high levels would > make one not want to read lists. Without sounding too arrogant, I > have both of those, and yet here I am... ;) > > R. > > -- > Yours, > Richard Hussey > UK 0701-1705 > > -- OOC: Bart Us2003122656 http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Jacob_Soren "The character of a man is known from his conversations." - Menander "A god from the Machine" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/d6196cdd/attachment.html From richardhussey42 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 17:45:10 2008 From: richardhussey42 at gmail.com (Richard Hussey) Date: Wed Apr 2 17:46:54 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <5ffd839e0804021438l698aa57cy3bcd6933c1ff1bc9@mail.gmail.com> References: <770100.38842.qm@web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <774d2ff0804021124s22700d9ej5118ad4dab79c01e@mail.gmail.com> <15D7A381-EC53-4386-97B7-C0EC1726FE6D@thejamin.com> <75a02b470804021428r68f778f2rcbe88a4c133364a9@mail.gmail.com> <5ffd839e0804021438l698aa57cy3bcd6933c1ff1bc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <75a02b470804021445hd7011c2g965ef4859f62c40@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Jacob Soren wrote: > You put a smiley face so I wont' slam you. > > I see where Zarli is coming from. Basically Vamp's are supposed to be pretty > static individuals that do not change with the passing of time. They wer > supposed t be pretty much stuck in the same old ways that reflect the time > frame they were embraced in. > This isn't the case with an insane amount of folks out there. > There are 300 year old Steam Engineer's that are debating "The Matrix" ICly > with other characters right now. Honestly why would a 300 year old vampire > honestly EVER care about The Matrix? I think the big problem that folks who > scream for realism and cannon have, is that we as normal folks cannot > imagine the horrendous boredom or tedium that comes from every day dying, > waking up, feeding, making sure your friends didn't sell you out, dying, > waking up, rinse repeat ad infinitum. Oh, I agree that older vampires shouldn't use it as much. I mean, my 100 year old thinks of them as some kind of advanced typewriter. But he can cope, just. That said, I'd have thought the lists would add something to counter the boredom you mention. I know they do in my life, and mine has a few more things to do each day. Wake, feed, university degree, sleep. Wait, no it doesn't... ;) R. -- Yours, Richard Hussey UK 0701-1705 VC London Promethean - http://promethean.cam-wiki.org/index.php/London VC Inverness Changeling - http://changeling.cam-wiki.org/index.php/Dunasheen Character wikis can be found at http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Richard_Hussey From discontlarp at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 18:31:50 2008 From: discontlarp at gmail.com (Steve Discont) Date: Wed Apr 2 18:33:35 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] So where do we go to recommend changes? Message-ID: So where do we go to recommend changes? I imagine that I'm not the only one here who has issues with the whole "Not being able to make even an Empathy challenge in Obfuscate, let alone Auspex", therefore making pretty much a whole clan useless/weaker. So where do we go to suggest that changes be made or does the ST staff actually pay attention to what we say here? -- Steve Discont US2003112549 "Ich bin der Uberjude." "That would certainly be poetic, wouldn't it? But would it be just?" -- Joe Auerbach -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/9d68bbc8/attachment.html From rulesninja at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 18:39:40 2008 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Wed Apr 2 18:41:26 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] So where do we go to recommend changes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49ffd2240804021539u15ce4a73ib05705a29eaddaad@mail.gmail.com> Send a suggestion up the chain. Usually RSTs are a good starting point. On undefined, Steve Discont wrote: > So where do we go to recommend changes? I imagine that I'm not the only > one here who has issues with the whole "Not being able to make even an > Empathy challenge in Obfuscate, let alone Auspex", therefore making pretty > much a whole clan useless/weaker. So where do we go to suggest that changes > be made or does the ST staff actually pay attention to what we say here? > > -- > Steve Discont > US2003112549 > > "Ich bin der Uberjude." > "That would certainly be poetic, wouldn't it? But would it be just?" -- > Joe Auerbach > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC http://www.cam-wiki.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/99ea6f1b/attachment.html From zach at camcarolina.com Wed Apr 2 18:43:18 2008 From: zach at camcarolina.com (Zach Shuford) Date: Wed Apr 2 18:45:03 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <9ba15fcb0804021218x26a7dbb6kdfd2c7b4a5d65bbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960804020753w5fde41f6ib69f2e1792da1836@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> <9ba15fcb0804021218x26a7dbb6kdfd2c7b4a5d65bbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> On 4/2/08, dsxmachina wrote: > > Someone must of lost a character to someone Auspexing them from Obfuscate. > ;) I can't imagine the point of this addendum change. It's a fundamental change to how Obfuscate works. Why do we need to have this? -- Transcribed from the words of: Duke Joshua "Paladin" Cartwright The White Knight Technologist Prince of Charlotte Duke of Sarasota ------------ --------- --------------- --------- ------ http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Paladin ------------ --------- --------------- --------- ------ Zachary Shuford US2005075745 AIM: ZachShuford | YIM: zach_shuford -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/667c6226/attachment.html From rulesninja at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 18:54:54 2008 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Wed Apr 2 18:56:43 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> <9ba15fcb0804021218x26a7dbb6kdfd2c7b4a5d65bbd@mail.gmail.com> <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240804021554t5e6c155fi9dc4f5605237cad2@mail.gmail.com> On undefined, Zach Shuford wrote: > On 4/2/08, dsxmachina wrote: > > > Someone must of lost a character to someone Auspexing them from > > Obfuscate. ;) > > > I can't imagine the point of this addendum change. It's a fundamental > change to how Obfuscate works. Why do we need to have this? > Powers like Nightmare 4, which could be used from Obfuscate to rob a target of an action for a killbox. There's other powers like it, but that's one that has been used before. -- Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC http://www.cam-wiki.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/a8942efd/attachment.html From ryan at stucker.net Wed Apr 2 19:11:29 2008 From: ryan at stucker.net (Ryan Stucker) Date: Wed Apr 2 19:13:39 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <49ffd2240804021554t5e6c155fi9dc4f5605237cad2@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> <9ba15fcb0804021218x26a7dbb6kdfd2c7b4a5d65bbd@mail.gmail.com> <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240804021554t5e6c155fi9dc4f5605237cad2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <037301c89516$e282c820$a7885860$@net> The problem is that the US addendum is now regularly over-reacting and blanket denying everything to try to compensate for bad judgement calls. (See my deliberate rants about the "NPCs may not be utilized either as the target of powers that would give PCs long term or permanent benefit nor as the source of such powers. " in January titled "[Cam-rules-advocacy] Addendum and Pledges". If you take the rule as written, you cannot use any power for any benefit that lasts longer than a game. So no forgetful mind, blood bonds, etc. That rule's still there, and I don't know anyone who is following it.) This new rule, even if stupid, is at least is limited to obfuscate, and not ALL "Powers". I haven't met an ST, that would say the nightmare 4 or Animalism 5 is not a significant interaction with your target. You are drastically altering someone's behaviour and mannerisms. Drastic, is not-subtle and is therefore "significant". If these STs are out there, I feel sorry for their players. There doesn't need to be a change in the rules, there needs to be some common sense applied. Ryan Stucker US2002021549 I can't imagine the point of this addendum change. It's a fundamental change to how Obfuscate works. Why do we need to have this? Powers like Nightmare 4, which could be used from Obfuscate to rob a target of an action for a killbox. There's other powers like it, but that's one that has been used before. -- Dan Wright US2002021042 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/dc936e66/attachment.html From ricochet666 at juno.com Wed Apr 2 19:11:27 2008 From: ricochet666 at juno.com (ricochet666@juno.com) Date: Wed Apr 2 19:14:44 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change Message-ID: <20080402.161127.12434.0@webmail07.vgs.untd.com> >Powers like Nightmare 4, which could be used from Obfuscate to rob a target of an action for >a killbox. There's other powers like it, but that's one that has been used before. You can still do this with the addendum update. Have you and all your friends in obfuscate, you start off by using nightmare 4 which drops your obfuscate and that of those around you. Your target then loses their next turn (assuming you succeed) and your friends beat the crap out of him. This just makes it so that you become visible when it happens. If you are worried about self preservation you use the turn in which they are stunned to re-obfuscate. But regardless, I do get your point. However, after hearing so many people voicing an unhappy opinion on the subject, it would be nice to get a more specific answer as to why this ruling was employed. It was obviously meant ot stop certain types of abuse, but at the same time it is taking legitimate unabusive discipline/skill combinations and making the impossible. -Richard Pruiett- US2002021210 Tri-Cities DST WA-076-D _____________________________________________________________ Click for free info on online doctorate degrees and make up to $250k/ year. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/REAK6aAYpEzU2eMdDot6EBlbHryIRvNEcCp4W64jRCFhLK3ZVGKJ21/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/fe77b632/attachment-0001.html From rulesninja at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 19:15:31 2008 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Wed Apr 2 19:17:18 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change In-Reply-To: <037301c89516$e282c820$a7885860$@net> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> <9ba15fcb0804021218x26a7dbb6kdfd2c7b4a5d65bbd@mail.gmail.com> <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240804021554t5e6c155fi9dc4f5605237cad2@mail.gmail.com> <037301c89516$e282c820$a7885860$@net> Message-ID: <49ffd2240804021615l4d53c908yf893683934571565@mail.gmail.com> Drawing attention to yourself is the wording used to break obfuscate, not interaction. Which is the crux of the issue. Honestly, I believe that the wording should be something along the line of "any offensive use of a discipline that results in a direct effect on it's targets or the targets environment breaks the use of Obfuscate powers that conceal the presence of it's user." On undefined, Ryan Stucker wrote: > The problem is that the US addendum is now regularly over-reacting and > blanket denying everything to try to compensate for bad judgement calls. > (See my deliberate rants about the "NPCs may not be utilized either as the > target of powers that would give PCs long term or permanent benefit nor as > the source of such powers. " in January titled "[Cam-rules-advocacy] > Addendum and Pledges". If you take the rule as written, you cannot use any > power for any benefit that lasts longer than a game. So no forgetful mind, > blood bonds, etc. That rule's still there, and I don't know anyone who is > following it.) This new rule, even if stupid, is at least is limited to > obfuscate, and not ALL "Powers". > > > > I haven't met an ST, that would say the nightmare 4 or Animalism 5 is not > a significant interaction with your target. You are drastically altering > someone's behaviour and mannerisms. Drastic, is not-subtle and is therefore > "significant". If these STs are out there, I feel sorry for their players. > There doesn't need to be a change in the rules, there needs to be some > common sense applied. > > > > Ryan Stucker > > US2002021549 > > > > > I can't imagine the point of this addendum change. It's a fundamental > change to how Obfuscate works. Why do we need to have this? > > > Powers like Nightmare 4, which could be used from Obfuscate to rob a > target of an action for a killbox. There's other powers like it, but that's > one that has been used before. > > -- > Dan Wright > US2002021042 > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC http://www.cam-wiki.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/29b24dc4/attachment.html From ricochet666 at juno.com Wed Apr 2 19:35:00 2008 From: ricochet666 at juno.com (ricochet666@juno.com) Date: Wed Apr 2 19:38:03 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Obfuscate US Change Message-ID: <20080402.163500.12434.1@webmail07.vgs.untd.com> >Honestly, I believe that the wording should be something along the line of "any offensive use of >a discipline that results in a direct effect on it's targets or the targets environment breaks the >use of Obfuscate powers that conceal the presence of it's user." Its not often I can say this but I think I agree with Dan's statement ;). I think this statement is fairly sound. But where would that leave Telepathy? that has always been one I think should be useable from Obfuscate. And you can use Telepathy to insert extra thoughts and images if I am not mistaken. That to me would be an "offensive use of a discipline that results in a direct effect on its target". Perhaps that statement with a SHORT (notice the emphasis on short?) list of exceptions. Again though, not to say I agree with the ruling overall, as many of the powers being stopped, whether offensive or not, do not actually draw attention to the target whether they are visible or not. -Richard Pruiett- US2002021210 Tri-Cities DST WA-076-D _____________________________________________________________ Click for free information and quotes for interest only loans. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/REAK6aAWyLXU4XFWkhsdYfOc94MOKjueWO8F2OA7jSRFQYbxO4KCaZ/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/518355ee/attachment.html From xne_rdx at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 19:40:06 2008 From: xne_rdx at yahoo.com (Lainn Goddard) Date: Wed Apr 2 19:41:53 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon Message-ID: <436851.7103.qm@web62213.mail.re1.yahoo.com> My point was relatively simple... the lists as set up by the camarilla are secure lists... and since they are secure lists you would need a high computer (or a ghoul with one) just to even access them .. The dots on our character sheets represent our skills. if we have no skill in something and attempt to access something that is being protected by someone who does.. we fail end of story. Lainn Goddard US2006129184 VST Mortals AVST Forsaken Player of: Various Characters ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/1470a93e/attachment.html From us2004112380 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 19:47:28 2008 From: us2004112380 at gmail.com (US2004112380) Date: Wed Apr 2 19:49:14 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <436851.7103.qm@web62213.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: Message-ID: <4754-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419CB8F@68.26.168.7> I operate on a secure VPN at work. I have a high degree of computer skills. However, we have 50-70 yr old attorneys using the same VPN and having the same level of security with virtually no skill whatsoever. Seriously, these people don't even know how to set up their email signatures. George Vaughn US2004112380 ...... Original Message ....... On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Lainn Goddard wrote: >My point was relatively simple... the lists as set up by the camarilla are secure lists... and since they are secure lists you would need a high computer (or a ghoul with one) just to even access them .. The dots on our character sheets represent our skills. if we have no skill in something and attempt to access something that is being protected by someone who does.. we fail end of story. > >Lainn Goddard US2006129184 >VST Mortals >AVST Forsaken >Player of: Various Characters > > >--------------- >You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost._______________________________________________ >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > From xne_rdx at yahoo.com Wed Apr 2 19:58:08 2008 From: xne_rdx at yahoo.com (Lainn Goddard) Date: Wed Apr 2 19:59:53 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon Message-ID: <544516.18915.qm@web62213.mail.re1.yahoo.com> But that is a network that has that level of security.. i am sure if those same men tried to get in from the outside.. they would get stopped at every turn. Lainn Goddard US2006129184 VST Mortals AVST Forsaken Player of: Various Character ____________________________________________________________________________________ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/47d1a0e2/attachment.html From jennnger at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 20:05:23 2008 From: jennnger at gmail.com (Jennger) Date: Wed Apr 2 20:07:12 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <544516.18915.qm@web62213.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <544516.18915.qm@web62213.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But if those same men e-mailed the administrator for the network and proved they should be on they'd get on. So basically the you signing up and supplying your information on the crd is how you prove to the administrator for the network that you belong on the list. - Jenn Stoltz US2007019300 On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Lainn Goddard wrote: > > But that is a network that has that level of security.. i am sure if > those same men tried to get in from the outside.. they would get stopped at > every turn. > > Lainn Goddard US2006129184 > VST Mortals > AVST Forsaken > Player of: Various Character > > ------------------------------ > You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster > Total Access, > No Cost. > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/91399090/attachment-0001.html From us2004112380 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 20:19:36 2008 From: us2004112380 at gmail.com (US2004112380) Date: Wed Apr 2 20:21:26 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Just something to postulate upon In-Reply-To: <544516.18915.qm@web62213.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: Message-ID: <4757-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419D317@68.26.168.7> The VPN is a secure network that they connect to from their home computers over their home internet. It's exactly the sort of thing we're talking about. George Vaughn US2004112380 ...... Original Message ....... On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 16:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Lainn Goddard wrote: > > But that is a network that has that level of security.. i am sure if those same men tried to get in from the outside.. they would get stopped at every turn. > >Lainn Goddard US2006129184 >VST Mortals >AVST Forsaken >Player of: Various Character > >--------------- >You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost._______________________________________________ >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > From us2004112380 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 20:56:07 2008 From: us2004112380 at gmail.com (US2004112380) Date: Wed Apr 2 20:57:53 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Perfidy 5 : Animus In-Reply-To: <49ffd2240804021554t5e6c155fi9dc4f5605237cad2@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020809kfba3771q64d342c256cb9a6e@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> <9ba15 fcb0804021218x26a7dbb6kdfd2c7b4a5d65bbd@mail.gmail.com> <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240804021554t5e6c155fi9dc4f5605237cad2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4741-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419DBA5@68.26.168.7> I was reading about the Kallisti, and I realized something odd about this power. The first two levels of Perfidy last a scene, the next two levels last a night. The level 5 power has no duration listed but says that the target (among other things) loses one dot in an applicable social merit each night they are afflicted, and suffers a -5 penalty on all positive social tests with their former allies, which lowers by one every two nights until it is finally gone. Is that saying that Perfidy 5 affects a target for 10 nights, causing them to hate their allies and lose 10 total dots of applicable social merits over 10 nights? George Vaughn US2004112380 ...... Original Message ....... On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:54:54 -0500 m0rtis wrote: >On undefined, Zach Shuford wrote: > >On 4/2/08, dsxmachina wrote: >Someone must of lost a character to someone Auspexing them from Obfuscate. ;) > >I can't imagine the point of this addendum change. It's a fundamental change to how Obfuscate works. Why do we need to have this? > > >Powers like Nightmare 4, which could be used from Obfuscate to rob a target of an action for a killbox. There's other powers like it, but that's one that has been used before. > > > >-- >Dan Wright >US2002021042 >Domain Storyteller - OKC >http://www.cam-wiki.org > >_______________________________________________ >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > From theevilst at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 20:59:33 2008 From: theevilst at gmail.com (Jesse Robbins) Date: Wed Apr 2 21:01:19 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Perfidy 5 : Animus In-Reply-To: <4741-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419DBA5@68.26.168.7> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240804021554t5e6c155fi9dc4f5605237cad2@mail.gmail.com> <4741-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419DBA5@68.26.168.7> Message-ID: <320fa9170804021759o2bc00bccj3b869c15cb91dcb@mail.gmail.com> Yes. That is exactly what the power does. On 4/2/08, US2004112380 wrote: > > I was reading about the Kallisti, and I realized something odd about this > power. > > The first two levels of Perfidy last a scene, the next two levels last a > night. The level 5 power has no duration listed but says that the target > (among other things) loses one dot in an applicable social merit each > night > they are afflicted, and suffers a -5 penalty on all positive social tests > with their former allies, which lowers by one every two nights until it is > finally gone. > > Is that saying that Perfidy 5 affects a target for 10 nights, causing them > to hate their allies and lose 10 total dots of applicable social merits > over 10 nights? > > > George Vaughn > US2004112380 > > > ...... Original Message ....... > On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:54:54 -0500 m0rtis wrote: > >On undefined, Zach Shuford wrote: > > > >On 4/2/08, dsxmachina wrote: > >Someone must of lost a character to someone Auspexing them from > Obfuscate. ;) > > > >I can't imagine the point of this addendum change. It's a fundamental > change to how Obfuscate > works. Why do we need to have this? > > > > > >Powers like Nightmare 4, which could be used from Obfuscate to rob a > target of an action for a killbox. There's other powers like it, but > that's > one that has been used before. > > > > > > > >-- > >Dan Wright > >US2002021042 > >Domain Storyteller - OKC > >http://www.cam-wiki.org > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Jesse Robbins US2007019373 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/351030f8/attachment.html From us2004112380 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:00:58 2008 From: us2004112380 at gmail.com (US2004112380) Date: Wed Apr 2 21:02:44 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Perfidy 5 : Animus In-Reply-To: <320fa9170804021759o2bc00bccj3b869c15cb91dcb@mail.gmail.com> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <1A00620F-0119-1000-8454-C589B732538C-Webmail-10009@mac.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> <49ff d2240804021554t5e6c155fi9dc4f5605237cad2@mail.gmail.com> <4741-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419DBA5@68.26.168.7> <320fa9170804021759o2bc00bccj3b869c15cb91dcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4761-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419DCC8@68.26.168.7> Egads! George Vaughn US2004112380 ...... Original Message ....... On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:59:33 -0700 "Jesse Robbins" wrote: >Yes. That is exactly what the power does. > >On 4/2/08, US2004112380 wrote: > >I was reading about the Kallisti, and I realized something odd about this >power. > >The first two levels of Perfidy last a scene, the next two levels last a >night. The level 5 power has no duration listed but says that the target >(among other things) loses one dot in an applicable social merit each night >they are afflicted, and suffers a -5 penalty on all positive social tests >with their former allies, which lowers by one every two nights until it is >finally gone. > >Is that saying that Perfidy 5 affects a target for 10 nights, causing them >to hate their allies and lose 10 total dots of applicable social merits >over 10 nights? > > >George Vaughn >US2004112380 > > >...... Original Message ....... >On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:54:54 -0500 m0rtis wrote: >>On undefined, Zach Shuford wrote: >> >>On 4/2/08, dsxmachina wrote: >>Someone must of lost a character to someone Auspexing them from Obfuscate. ;) >> >>I can't imagine the point of this addendum change. It's a fundamental change to how Obfuscate >works. Why do we need to have this? >> >> >>Powers like Nightmare 4, which could be used from Obfuscate to rob a >target of an action for a killbox. There's other powers like it, but that's >one that has been used before. >> >> >> >>-- >>Dan Wright >>US2002021042 >>Domain Storyteller - OKC >>http://www.cam-wiki.org >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >>Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >>http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy >> > >_______________________________________________ >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > >-- >Jesse Robbins >US2007019373_______________________________________________ >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > From theevilst at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:04:17 2008 From: theevilst at gmail.com (Jesse Robbins) Date: Wed Apr 2 21:06:04 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Perfidy 5 : Animus In-Reply-To: <4761-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419DCC8@68.26.168.7> References: <663ff8a50804020749j51d9636fi780c910578fc5efb@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020908vc7dc2e0l71f35f8c96c2609a@mail.gmail.com> <584cf3b00804020954r5d989022q25b9d9d5f51dffe2@mail.gmail.com> <6ea241730804020957h7927f998pb0c33a849bc74320@mail.gmail.com> <63dd16310804021216m53f47565pa83a9dcffaeda5fd@mail.gmail.com> <1e8b61790804021543s28b2a966v69d139ac93a7f4ae@mail.gmail.com> <4741-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419DBA5@68.26.168.7> <320fa9170804021759o2bc00bccj3b869c15cb91dcb@mail.gmail.com> <4761-SnapperMsgF1F4B98BC419DCC8@68.26.168.7> Message-ID: <320fa9170804021804j1191b1f7hddcecaa70bb50648@mail.gmail.com> Indeed. Perfidy is deliciously obscene. This is why Kallisti are kill on sight. Torpor them, ship them to an Elder, stick a tap in them, and turn the Ravager into a Keg. But level 5 isn't the worst of it. Go back and look at what level 1 does to Humanity... Egad indeed. On 4/2/08, US2004112380 wrote: > > Egads! > > > > George Vaughn > US2004112380 > > > ...... Original Message ....... > > On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:59:33 -0700 "Jesse Robbins" > wrote: > > >Yes. That is exactly what the power does. > > > >On 4/2/08, US2004112380 wrote: > > > >I was reading about the Kallisti, and I realized something odd about this > >power. > > > >The first two levels of Perfidy last a scene, the next two levels last a > >night. The level 5 power has no duration listed but says that the target > >(among other things) loses one dot in an applicable social merit each > night > >they are afflicted, and suffers a -5 penalty on all positive social tests > >with their former allies, which lowers by one every two nights until it > is > >finally gone. > > > >Is that saying that Perfidy 5 affects a target for 10 nights, causing > them > >to hate their allies and lose 10 total dots of applicable social merits > >over 10 nights? > > > > > >George Vaughn > >US2004112380 > > > > > >...... Original Message ....... > >On Wed, 2 Apr 2008 17:54:54 -0500 m0rtis wrote: > >>On undefined, Zach Shuford wrote: > >> > >>On 4/2/08, dsxmachina wrote: > >>Someone must of lost a character to someone Auspexing them from > Obfuscate. ;) > >> > >>I can't imagine the point of this addendum change. It's a fundamental > change to how Obfuscate > >works. Why do we need to have this? > >> > >> > >>Powers like Nightmare 4, which could be used from Obfuscate to rob a > >target of an action for a killbox. There's other powers like it, but > that's > >one that has been used before. > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>Dan Wright > >>US2002021042 > >>Domain Storyteller - OKC > >>http://www.cam-wiki.org > >> > >>_______________________________________________ > >>Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > >>Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > >>http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > >-- > >Jesse Robbins > > >US2007019373_______________________________________________ > > >Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > >Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > -- Jesse Robbins US2007019373 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/8db36132/attachment-0001.html From brandonakana2003 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:41:29 2008 From: brandonakana2003 at gmail.com (Brandon Akana) Date: Wed Apr 2 21:43:13 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Did the US addendum just pull out the section of Modifiers? In-Reply-To: <49ffd2240804021145p4d80d1ccte75c06c1ae138fc9@mail.gmail.com> References: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240804021145p4d80d1ccte75c06c1ae138fc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sweet. Does that mean Sudden Strength can actually somewhat be used again? On 4/2/08, m0rtis wrote: > > Yes. It was removed. > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Jesse Robbins wrote: > > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' a > > single > > trait at a time. Only the most powerful effect takes effect. The only > > exception this is > > powers within a single power set, such as Vigor or the Contract of > > Stone. > > Example: Bob the Carthian receives the benefit of Palms of Blood > > (Stigmatica 2) > > with 5 successes (+5 Strength). He then takes a Sanguine Strength 3 > > Spoiling potion. > > Only the Stigmatica takes effect. If the Stigmatica effect is somehow > > removed before > > the Sanguine Strength potion expires, then that potion would be in > > effect for its > > remaining duration. > > > > > > > > Remember this? It's gone. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > -- > Dan Wright > US2002021042 > Domain Storyteller - OKC > http://www.cam-wiki.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) ----------------------------------------- Brandon Akana US2002086518 DST Kitsap NW SRA Western WA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/ff239c95/attachment.html From machineiv at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:42:27 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Wed Apr 2 21:44:14 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Did the US addendum just pull out the section of Modifiers? In-Reply-To: References: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240804021145p4d80d1ccte75c06c1ae138fc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50804021842t2224d67cya4e5b645a493f83f@mail.gmail.com> Yes. It absolutely can. In fact, it loses all its previous inhibitions, except for the +15 thing (which I'm comfortable with.) On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Brandon Akana wrote: > Sweet. Does that mean Sudden Strength can actually somewhat be used > again? > > > > > On 4/2/08, m0rtis wrote: > > > > Yes. It was removed. > > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Jesse Robbins > > wrote: > > > > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may 'buff' > > > a single > > > trait at a time. Only the most powerful effect takes effect. The only > > > exception this is > > > powers within a single power set, such as Vigor or the Contract of > > > Stone. > > > Example: Bob the Carthian receives the benefit of Palms of Blood > > > (Stigmatica 2) > > > with 5 successes (+5 Strength). He then takes a Sanguine Strength 3 > > > Spoiling potion. > > > Only the Stigmatica takes effect. If the Stigmatica effect is somehow > > > removed before > > > the Sanguine Strength potion expires, then that potion would be in > > > effect for its > > > remaining duration. > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember this? It's gone. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dan Wright > > US2002021042 > > Domain Storyteller - OKC > > http://www.cam-wiki.org > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > -- > (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) > ----------------------------------------- > Brandon Akana > US2002086518 > DST Kitsap > NW SRA Western WA > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- -- -David A Hill Jr DST for PA-015-D US2003071853 "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." - JR "Bob" Dobbs -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/709c4dc1/attachment.html From brandonakana2003 at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:46:26 2008 From: brandonakana2003 at gmail.com (Brandon Akana) Date: Wed Apr 2 21:48:11 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Did the US addendum just pull out the section of Modifiers? In-Reply-To: <663ff8a50804021842t2224d67cya4e5b645a493f83f@mail.gmail.com> References: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240804021145p4d80d1ccte75c06c1ae138fc9@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50804021842t2224d67cya4e5b645a493f83f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Now they just have to get rid of that stupid "level 6 and higher disciplines can't be artificially created" rule, and Iron Muscles will be useful as well... On 4/2/08, David Hill wrote: > > Yes. It absolutely can. In fact, it loses all its previous inhibitions, > except for the +15 thing (which I'm comfortable with.) > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:41 PM, Brandon Akana > wrote: > > > Sweet. Does that mean Sudden Strength can actually somewhat be used > > again? > > > > > > > > > > On 4/2/08, m0rtis wrote: > > > > > > Yes. It was removed. > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 1:41 PM, Jesse Robbins > > > wrote: > > > > > > > US Addendum Modification (2-Jan-2008): Only a single power may > > > > 'buff' a single > > > > trait at a time. Only the most powerful effect takes effect. The > > > > only exception this is > > > > powers within a single power set, such as Vigor or the Contract of > > > > Stone. > > > > Example: Bob the Carthian receives the benefit of Palms of Blood > > > > (Stigmatica 2) > > > > with 5 successes (+5 Strength). He then takes a Sanguine Strength 3 > > > > Spoiling potion. > > > > Only the Stigmatica takes effect. If the Stigmatica effect is > > > > somehow removed before > > > > the Sanguine Strength potion expires, then that potion would be in > > > > effect for its > > > > remaining duration. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Remember this? It's gone. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Dan Wright > > > US2002021042 > > > Domain Storyteller - OKC > > > http://www.cam-wiki.org > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) > > ----------------------------------------- > > Brandon Akana > > US2002086518 > > DST Kitsap > > NW SRA Western WA > > _______________________________________________ > > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > > > > > > -- > -- > -David A Hill Jr > DST for PA-015-D > US2003071853 > "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm > preaching to." - JR "Bob" Dobbs > > _______________________________________________ > Cam-rules-advocacy mailing list > Cam-rules-advocacy@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/cam-rules-advocacy > > -- (Note: If this was an IC email, it did NOT come from Gmail) ----------------------------------------- Brandon Akana US2002086518 DST Kitsap NW SRA Western WA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/cam-rules-advocacy/attachments/20080402/ccb2aab0/attachment.html From machineiv at gmail.com Wed Apr 2 21:48:08 2008 From: machineiv at gmail.com (David Hill) Date: Wed Apr 2 21:49:54 2008 Subject: [Cam-rules-advocacy] Did the US addendum just pull out the section of Modifiers? In-Reply-To: References: <320fa9170804021141w3162f09dl2bb91fdf0745c31d@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240804021145p4d80d1ccte75c06c1ae138fc9@mail.gmail.com> <663ff8a50804021842t2224d67cya4e5b645a493f83f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <663ff8a50804021848w66b193bdub1e9a27d87c2d48b@mail.gmail.com> To be fair... I think Iron Muscles is good as it is. Letting someone get Resilience 10 is pretty hardcore. Already, I can hand out Resilience 5 like it's candy. Flesh of Iron is bad enough at that level. Giving everyone in your retinue Resilience 10? Ouch. On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:46 PM, Brandon Akana wrote: > Now they just have to get rid of that stupid "level 6 and higher > disciplines can't be artificially created" rule, and Iron Muscles will be > useful as well... > > > > On 4/2/08, David Hill wrote: > > > > Yes. It absolutely can. In fact, i