From circuitfox at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 08:36:36 2007 From: circuitfox at yahoo.com (Laura Simpson) Date: Wed Aug 1 08:36:39 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] paradox draws Message-ID: <56203.87725.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Right. If you're say, trying to hit me and your penalties reduce me to zero on my attack pool, I can still make a chance draw. What I don't understand is why or how that applies to a paradox draw. Under chance draw it says "anytime your test pool is reduced to zero or less, you may still make a chance draw". The verbage makes it sound like an optional thing. I'm just wondering if this is stated explicitly anywhere in the MAGE book. OOC: Laura Simpson US2002022887 VST Mage AR012D, Little Rock, AR Also known as the Jicama of Evil. IC: Quitalla Montalvio, Circle of the Crone, Hierophant and Primogen Kitsune, Orphan of Proteus, Mysterium Poetic License, Ithaeur, Iron Master Grendel, Hacker, Ukranian Mafia ----- Original Message ---- From: m0rtis To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:40:33 PM Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] paradox draws Paradox rolls are a dice pool. Whenever you reduce a dicepool to less than one trait, they become chance dice/tests. That's basic MET/TT rules. On 7/30/07, Laura Simpson wrote: I was recently told that even if you mitigate all the paradox draws you still have to do one chance draw for paradox, yet I can't find the rule for this. help. OOC: Laura Simpson US2002022887 VST Mage AR012D, Little Rock, AR Also known as the Jicama of Evil. IC: Quitalla Montalvio, Circle of the Crone, Hierophant and Primogen Kitsune, Orphan of Proteus, Mysterium Poetic License, Ithaeur, Iron Master Grendel, Hacker, Ukranian Mafia _______________________________________________ Awakening-rules mailing list Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC Camarilla Wiki Community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/3d2bace6/attachment.html From circuitfox at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 08:37:41 2007 From: circuitfox at yahoo.com (Laura Simpson) Date: Wed Aug 1 08:37:43 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Cloning the Awakened Message-ID: <596010.95546.qm@web32414.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yeah, but you only got to use it 6 times. OOC: Laura Simpson US2002022887 VST Mage AR012D, Little Rock, AR Also known as the Jicama of Evil. IC: Quitalla Montalvio, Circle of the Crone, Hierophant and Primogen Kitsune, Orphan of Proteus, Mysterium Poetic License, Ithaeur, Iron Master Grendel, Hacker, Ukranian Mafia ----- Original Message ---- From: Robert Sanders To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 3:49:13 PM Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Cloning the Awakened Didnt there used to be a prev rote called Activate Next Clone in the previous chronicle? On 7/31/07, christopher buser < thebuser@gmail.com> wrote:Sounds like a Global approval. Especially since Life magic shoudn't be this permanent. chris buser us2002021013 On 7/31/07, Tim Caisley wrote: > Righty, I'm a bit stumped on this one, so I'm throwing it out to the floor > for discussion. > > To clone the Awakened...perfectly, down to cellular information, memories, > resonance. What would people thought on this be? > > Physical body.... > Memories.... > Resonance.... > anything else.... > > > Tim C > IR200201050 > GIRC VST Awakening > GIRC aDST Promethean > GIRC DC > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > _______________________________________________ Awakening-rules mailing list Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules -- Robert "Spaz" Sanders, US2006088295 Domain Coordinator OK-010-D Requiem VST OK-010-D Oklahoma City, OK robert.sanders2@gmail.com Player Wiki: http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Robert_%22Spaz%22_Sanders Player of Nickolas Devontinae http://cam-wiki.org/index.php/Nickolas_Devontinae -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/23ab2eda/attachment-0001.html From circuitfox at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 08:47:47 2007 From: circuitfox at yahoo.com (Laura Simpson) Date: Wed Aug 1 08:47:50 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Cloning the Awakened Message-ID: <679040.92737.qm@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Why wouldn't it be able to reproduce? Purely scientifically speaking Taking a piece of your own DNA, the exact set of genes you received from both your parents, and cloning yourself will produce differences. No copy is exactly like the original. As soon as that bit of flesh is separate from you it becomes different, different mutations, different bacterial, different exposure to the world in general. Speaking from a purely spiritual basis as defined by the WoD backdrop already in place, it wouldn't have the same "soul". It would be a fully functional human being, and if you're just going for something that stands in as you, great, but it wouldn't be an exact 100% copy in every way, brain mapping would be slightly different, the resonance would be slightly different, physical characteristics would deviate from the original over time. Basically once it's exposed to the world there would be differences. If it was examined closely enough by someone with life or mind, they would know the difference. OOC: Laura Simpson US2002022887 VST Mage AR012D, Little Rock, AR Also known as the Jicama of Evil. IC: Quitalla Montalvio, Circle of the Crone, Hierophant and Primogen Kitsune, Orphan of Proteus, Mysterium Poetic License, Ithaeur, Iron Master Grendel, Hacker, Ukranian Mafia ----- Original Message ---- From: David Blackwell To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 6:14:56 PM Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Cloning the Awakened Yes, but is not a clone, cannot reproduce, wouldn't pass a blood test, basically they are what they are until they are destroyed... I won't even say until they die because they aren't really fully alive. I still say it doesn't meet the criteria of fully functional duplicate of an awakened being, most particularly resonance, which would be that of the creator and not that of the individual they are imitating. Also, I suspect that mentioning resonance here indicates the belief that the duplicate would be awakened and do its own magic. This is not "cloning the Awakened, perfectly..." which was the original question. You can't even make a truly functional duplicate of a human being, just a good imitation. Sorry, but Archmastery is definitely required for a perfect clone of an awakened being, or even for a perfect clone of a sleeper. Homonculi don't meet the definition of "perfect clone" on either count. David Blackwell US2002021120 On 7/31/07, David Sauter wrote: *sigh* read it again please. A Homoculi can pass as fully human. Note the harshest Wisdom test - for creating an exact duplicate of yourself. It is possiable to create fully human looking Homonculi and they can have fully human (though fragile) psyches. That said what they can't do is Awaken or grow/change. That's their big drawback. David Sauter US2002021140 On 7/31/07, David Blackwell wrote: > Ah, but that isn't a clone, especially not a fully functional copy of an > awakened individual which is where the question that was asked is heading. > Besides, homonculi aren't human, they just do a fairly good job of passing > the Turing test, they are actually inorganic animated constructs. In fact > the more human looking you try and make them, the more difficult the Wisdom > test gets. > > Not at all what was being asked. > > David Blackwell > US2002021120 > > > > On 7/31/07, David Sauter wrote: > > David, > > > > Please go read Tome of Mysteries section on Homoculi. > > > > David Sauter > > US2002021140 > > > > On 7/31/07, David Blackwell wrote: > > > On 7/31/07, Tim Caisley < tcaisley@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Righty, I'm a bit stumped on this one, so I'm throwing it out to the > floor > > > for discussion. > > > > > > > > To clone the Awakened...perfectly, down to cellular information, > memories, > > > resonance. What would people thought on this be? > > > > > > > > Physical body.... > > > > Memories.... > > > > Resonance.... > > > > anything else.... > > > > > > > > > In order to magically create a fully grown clone and have it work you > need > > > Archmastery. Anything less will be unable to manage permanent effects > that > > > create a human being. That much is in the rules. > > > David Blackwell > > > US2002021120 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------ > > David S > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > -- ------ David S _______________________________________________ Awakening-rules mailing list Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/c0a1c954/attachment.html From rulesninja at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 08:49:44 2007 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Wed Aug 1 08:49:46 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] paradox draws In-Reply-To: <56203.87725.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <56203.87725.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240708010549v17a70ecbtb03119f0f6b9b004@mail.gmail.com> The chance draw is for the storyteller. Paradox draws are a storyteller function, you spending Mana only penalizes their draw. You'll not find it in the Mage book. It's just what happens when a Dice pool is reduced to zero. Anyhow, it wont matter much soon anyhow, since the rules will be changing with MET:A soon. On 8/1/07, Laura Simpson wrote: > > Right. If you're say, trying to hit me and your penalties reduce me to > zero on my attack pool, I can still make a chance draw. What I don't > understand is why or how that applies to a paradox draw. Under chance draw > it says "anytime your test pool is reduced to zero or less, you may still > make a chance draw". The verbage makes it sound like an optional thing. I'm > just wondering if this is stated explicitly anywhere in the MAGE book. > > OOC: > Laura Simpson > US2002022887 > VST Mage AR012D, Little Rock, AR > Also known as the Jicama of Evil. > IC: > Quitalla Montalvio, Circle of the Crone, Hierophant and Primogen > Kitsune, Orphan of Proteus, Mysterium > Poetic License, Ithaeur, Iron Master > Grendel, Hacker, Ukranian Mafia > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: m0rtis > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue < > awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com> > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:40:33 PM > Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] paradox draws > > Paradox rolls are a dice pool. Whenever you reduce a dicepool to less than > one trait, they become chance dice/tests. That's basic MET/TT rules. > > On 7/30/07, Laura Simpson wrote: > > > > I was recently told that even if you mitigate all the paradox draws you > > still have to do one chance draw for paradox, yet I can't find the rule for > > this. > > > > help. > > > > > > OOC: > > Laura Simpson > > US2002022887 > > VST Mage AR012D, Little Rock, AR > > Also known as the Jicama of Evil. > > > > IC: > > Quitalla Montalvio, Circle of the Crone, Hierophant and Primogen > > Kitsune, Orphan of Proteus, Mysterium > > Poetic License, Ithaeur, Iron Master > > Grendel, Hacker, Ukranian Mafia > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > Dan Wright > US2002021042 > Domain Storyteller - OKC > Camarilla Wiki Community > > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC Camarilla Wiki Community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/e440c09e/attachment.html From luetkemeyer at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 08:58:36 2007 From: luetkemeyer at hotmail.com (Christian luetkemeyer) Date: Wed Aug 1 08:58:39 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Re: Paradox Chance Draws Message-ID: i don't think they're optional if reduced to a chance die, regardless of what the wording is. However... The table top book actually has a possible GOOD thing for pulling a 0 (crit failure) on a paradox chance die, but then we don't have crit failures in LARP :( Luke us2002034128 > Right. If you're say, trying to hit me and your penalties reduce me to zero on my attack pool, I can still make a chance draw. What I don't understand is why or how that applies to a paradox draw. Under chance draw it says "anytime your test pool is reduced to zero or less, you may still make a chance draw". The verbage makes it sound like an optional thing. I'm just wondering if this is stated explicitly anywhere in the MAGE book. > _________________________________________________________________ Missed the show?? Watch videos of the Live Earth Concert on MSN. http://liveearth.msn.com From mindwright at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 09:01:24 2007 From: mindwright at gmail.com (David Blackwell) Date: Wed Aug 1 09:01:27 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] paradox draws In-Reply-To: <56203.87725.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <56203.87725.qm@web32408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As the storyteller, you make the Paradox draw, it isn't drawn by the player. I suppose you are correct in that chance draws are optional, but that just means that as the storyteller you have the option of letting the player off the hook if they mitigate completely... Personally I prefer to make the chance draws, it keeps the players on edge, especially since Paradox uses multi-draw like Wisdom checks and 10 again isn't capped like on a standard MET draw. Still I'm looking forward to the new MET rules. Much harsher. David Blackwell US2002021120 On 8/1/07, Laura Simpson wrote: > > Right. If you're say, trying to hit me and your penalties reduce me to zero > on my attack pool, I can still make a chance draw. What I don't understand > is why or how that applies to a paradox draw. Under chance draw it says > "anytime your test pool is reduced to zero or less, you may still make a > chance draw". The verbage makes it sound like an optional thing. I'm just > wondering if this is stated explicitly anywhere in the MAGE book. > OOC: > Laura Simpson > US2002022887 > VST Mage AR012D, Little Rock, AR > Also known as the Jicama of Evil. > > IC: > Quitalla Montalvio, Circle of the Crone, Hierophant and Primogen > Kitsune, Orphan of Proteus, Mysterium > Poetic License, Ithaeur, Iron Master > Grendel, Hacker, Ukranian Mafia > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: m0rtis > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > > Sent: Monday, July 30, 2007 1:40:33 PM > Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] paradox draws > > Paradox rolls are a dice pool. Whenever you reduce a dicepool to less than > one trait, they become chance dice/tests. That's basic MET/TT rules. > > On 7/30/07, Laura Simpson wrote: > > I was recently told that even if you mitigate all the paradox draws you > still have to do one chance draw for paradox, yet I can't find the rule for > this. > > > > help. > > > > > > OOC: > > Laura Simpson > > US2002022887 > > VST Mage AR012D, Little Rock, AR > > Also known as the Jicama of Evil. > > > > IC: > > Quitalla Montalvio, Circle of the Crone, Hierophant and Primogen > > Kitsune, Orphan of Proteus, Mysterium > > Poetic License, Ithaeur, Iron Master > > Grendel, Hacker, Ukranian Mafia > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > From delwin at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 09:54:47 2007 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Wed Aug 1 09:54:52 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Cloning the Awakened In-Reply-To: <679040.92737.qm@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <679040.92737.qm@web32409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <945cfca20708010654t66c7ff1ej4470a3970830e8cc@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/07, Laura Simpson wrote: > > Why wouldn't it be able to reproduce? > > Purely scientifically speaking > Taking a piece of your own DNA, the exact set of genes you received from > both your parents, and cloning yourself will produce differences. No copy is > exactly like the original. As soon as that bit of flesh is separate from you > it becomes different, different mutations, different bacterial, different > exposure to the world in general. > > Speaking from a purely spiritual basis as defined by the WoD backdrop > already in place, it wouldn't have the same "soul". It would be a fully > functional human being, and if you're just going for something that stands > in as you, great, but it wouldn't be an exact 100% copy in every way, brain > mapping would be slightly different, the resonance would be slightly > different, physical characteristics would deviate from the original over > time. Basically once it's exposed to the world there would be differences. > If it was examined closely enough by someone with life or mind, they would > know the difference. > OOC: > Laura Simpson > US2002022887 Well there's some question as to what a Homonculi really is - even a fully flesh one. Is it a Frankenstine/Promethian style creation or is it a real living entity? That's unanswered in the setting or rules covering them so honestly it'd be up to the ST. Your major restrictions on Homonculi however is that it cannot grow and change - which means no cellular reproduction which means no semen creation (for male ones) and no capability of gestation (for females) so they cannot reproduce. Again you need Imperial magic to create spells that can grow and change. David Sauter US2002021140 From rulesninja at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 11:48:22 2007 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Wed Aug 1 11:48:25 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert Message-ID: <49ffd2240708010848k6892cbd8m7b33d79e7e05177f@mail.gmail.com> > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell itself. Not because of anything else. Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can cause disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the spell vulgar. Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC Camarilla Wiki Community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/18fa094f/attachment.html From cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 11:52:23 2007 From: cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com (Cotf VST Awakening) Date: Wed Aug 1 11:53:38 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <49ffd2240708010848k6892cbd8m7b33d79e7e05177f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005d01c7d453$f4192090$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Disbelief does not cause paradox - it unravels spells. Also bad, but not directly related to paradox. James Evans US2004092015 -----Original Message----- From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of m0rtis Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and what the local perception of the WoD is for them. This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell itself. Not because of anything else. Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can cause disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the spell vulgar. Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC Camarilla Wiki Community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/7abf2ac7/attachment.html From delwin at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 11:56:01 2007 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Wed Aug 1 11:56:07 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <005d01c7d453$f4192090$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> References: <49ffd2240708010848k6892cbd8m7b33d79e7e05177f@mail.gmail.com> <005d01c7d453$f4192090$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Message-ID: <945cfca20708010856g49d8148bv1f5ed29327850c79@mail.gmail.com> Incorrect. Disbelief also generates a paradox draw. David Sauter US2002021140 On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > > > > Disbelief does not cause paradox ? it unravels spells. Also bad, but not > directly related to paradox. > > > > James Evans > > US2004092015 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On > Behalf Of m0rtis > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > > > > > > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > > > > > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell > itself. Not because of anything else. > > Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can cause > disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the spell > vulgar. > > > > > > Dan Wright > US2002021042 > Domain Storyteller - OKC > Camarilla Wiki Community > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > -- ------ David S From cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 12:01:44 2007 From: cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com (Cotf VST Awakening) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:03:05 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <945cfca20708010856g49d8148bv1f5ed29327850c79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006201c7d455$43a146a0$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Really? After a spell is cast? That seems... impossible. James Evans US2004092015 -----Original Message----- From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of David Sauter Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:56 AM To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert Incorrect. Disbelief also generates a paradox draw. David Sauter US2002021140 On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > > > > Disbelief does not cause paradox - it unravels spells. Also bad, but not > directly related to paradox. > > > > James Evans > > US2004092015 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On > Behalf Of m0rtis > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > > > > > > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > > > > > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell > itself. Not because of anything else. > > Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can cause > disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the spell > vulgar. > > > > > > Dan Wright > US2002021042 > Domain Storyteller - OKC > Camarilla Wiki Community > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > -- ------ David S _______________________________________________ Awakening-rules mailing list Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules From delwin at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 12:09:20 2007 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:09:24 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <006201c7d455$43a146a0$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> References: <945cfca20708010856g49d8148bv1f5ed29327850c79@mail.gmail.com> <006201c7d455$43a146a0$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Message-ID: <945cfca20708010909v15dfc4c7q981bed686c81fffb@mail.gmail.com> Disbelief is specifically what happens when a Covert spell gets outed. In Old Chronicle it would flip from Coincidental to Vulgar - but now Covert vs. Vulgar is set in stone. It doesn't change. In New Chronicle that same effect is achieved through Disbelief. If you take a spell that is Improbable (I.E. sleepers won't believe in it) and you cast it it's fine (Covert) until a Sleeper sees it. Then you get the paradox hit right then and there along with degrading the potency of the spell. If you really want to piss off your players and they have lots of pre-cast spells up have someone cast Supernal Vision on a Sleeper and let him loose in the gathering. You'll likely kill your entire VSS so be careful with that. David Sauter US2002021140 On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > Really? After a spell is cast? That seems... impossible. > > James Evans > US2004092015 > > -----Original Message----- > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of David > Sauter > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:56 AM > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > Incorrect. Disbelief also generates a paradox draw. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Disbelief does not cause paradox - it unravels spells. Also bad, but not > > directly related to paradox. > > > > > > > > James Evans > > > > US2004092015 > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On > > Behalf Of m0rtis > > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM > > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > > Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > > > > > > > > > > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell > > itself. Not because of anything else. > > > > Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can > cause > > disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the > spell > > vulgar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Wright > > US2002021042 > > Domain Storyteller - OKC > > Camarilla Wiki Community > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > -- ------ David S From cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 12:10:24 2007 From: cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com (Cotf VST Awakening) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:11:41 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <945cfca20708010856g49d8148bv1f5ed29327850c79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006801c7d456$793e9910$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Nope... just read through Disbelief Rules on page 274 of M:tA - Disbelief and Paradox (by witnessing a vulgar spell or covert spell that strains credulity) are separate things, though can be caused by the same thing. Disbelief can unravel a spell as it's being cast, or a spell that is already in play. Specifically, disbelief refers to the effects spells have on sleeper witnesses and the effects that sleeper witnesses have on spells, regardless as to whether or not they witness the casting or spell in effect. Paradox is spawned from the same event does not have an effect on Disbelief, only if that event is the casting of a vulgar spell or covert spell that strains credulity, with exception that anomalies are not affected by Disbelief (meaning mortal witnesses won't justify or forget the anomaly that would have triggered the disbelief). James Evans US2004092015 -----Original Message----- From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of David Sauter Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:56 AM To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert Incorrect. Disbelief also generates a paradox draw. David Sauter US2002021140 On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > > > > Disbelief does not cause paradox - it unravels spells. Also bad, but not > directly related to paradox. > > > > James Evans > > US2004092015 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On > Behalf Of m0rtis > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > > > > > > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > > > > > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell > itself. Not because of anything else. > > Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can cause > disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the spell > vulgar. > > > > > > Dan Wright > US2002021042 > Domain Storyteller - OKC > Camarilla Wiki Community > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > -- ------ David S _______________________________________________ Awakening-rules mailing list Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules From cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 12:19:16 2007 From: cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com (Cotf VST Awakening) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:20:33 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <945cfca20708010909v15dfc4c7q981bed686c81fffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006e01c7d457$b5d336f0$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Ah, I believe the crux of our argument is whether or not paradox can be rolled after a spell is cast. Page 125 of M:tA gives the guidelines here - The caster checks for paradox before the roll is made, except in the case of extended castings where paradox is only rolled if the casting was a success. The Disbelief rules do not modify this, and the example also omits any mention of a paradox roll. James Evans US2004092015 -----Original Message----- From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of David Sauter Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:09 PM To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert Disbelief is specifically what happens when a Covert spell gets outed. In Old Chronicle it would flip from Coincidental to Vulgar - but now Covert vs. Vulgar is set in stone. It doesn't change. In New Chronicle that same effect is achieved through Disbelief. If you take a spell that is Improbable (I.E. sleepers won't believe in it) and you cast it it's fine (Covert) until a Sleeper sees it. Then you get the paradox hit right then and there along with degrading the potency of the spell. If you really want to piss off your players and they have lots of pre-cast spells up have someone cast Supernal Vision on a Sleeper and let him loose in the gathering. You'll likely kill your entire VSS so be careful with that. David Sauter US2002021140 On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > Really? After a spell is cast? That seems... impossible. > > James Evans > US2004092015 > > -----Original Message----- > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of David > Sauter > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:56 AM > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > Incorrect. Disbelief also generates a paradox draw. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Disbelief does not cause paradox - it unravels spells. Also bad, but not > > directly related to paradox. > > > > > > > > James Evans > > > > US2004092015 > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On > > Behalf Of m0rtis > > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM > > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > > Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > > > > > > > > > > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell > > itself. Not because of anything else. > > > > Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can > cause > > disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the > spell > > vulgar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Wright > > US2002021042 > > Domain Storyteller - OKC > > Camarilla Wiki Community > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > -- ------ David S _______________________________________________ Awakening-rules mailing list Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules From delwin at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 12:26:23 2007 From: delwin at gmail.com (David Sauter) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:26:29 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <006801c7d456$793e9910$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> References: <945cfca20708010856g49d8148bv1f5ed29327850c79@mail.gmail.com> <006801c7d456$793e9910$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Message-ID: <945cfca20708010926j4a16d168me2fcfe4ced4ad213@mail.gmail.com> /me reads it again OK page 113 states that a sleeper witnessing an improbable spell causes ti to generate paradox. That says nothing about 'when it's cast'. On the other hand the Paradox section (127) says that paradox is generated when a vulgar spell is cast, or when a improbable spell is cast and witnessed. hm. Interesting - according to a more strict reading that I'd been using you could cast as many Vulgar spells as you want in a Demesne then walk out with them all active so long as there's no visible effect (to generate Disbelief) you're fine. Useful trick that. David Sauter US2002021140 On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > Nope... just read through Disbelief Rules on page 274 of M:tA - Disbelief > and Paradox (by witnessing a vulgar spell or covert spell that strains > credulity) are separate things, though can be caused by the same thing. > > Disbelief can unravel a spell as it's being cast, or a spell that is already > in play. Specifically, disbelief refers to the effects spells have on > sleeper witnesses and the effects that sleeper witnesses have on spells, > regardless as to whether or not they witness the casting or spell in effect. > Paradox is spawned from the same event does not have an effect on Disbelief, > only if that event is the casting of a vulgar spell or covert spell that > strains credulity, with exception that anomalies are not affected by > Disbelief (meaning mortal witnesses won't justify or forget the anomaly that > would have triggered the disbelief). > > James Evans > US2004092015 > > -----Original Message----- > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of David > Sauter > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:56 AM > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > Incorrect. Disbelief also generates a paradox draw. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Disbelief does not cause paradox - it unravels spells. Also bad, but not > > directly related to paradox. > > > > > > > > James Evans > > > > US2004092015 > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On > > Behalf Of m0rtis > > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM > > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > > Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > > > > > > > > > > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell > > itself. Not because of anything else. > > > > Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can > cause > > disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the > spell > > vulgar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Wright > > US2002021042 > > Domain Storyteller - OKC > > Camarilla Wiki Community > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > -- ------ David S From mindwright at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 12:35:55 2007 From: mindwright at gmail.com (David Blackwell) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:35:58 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <945cfca20708010856g49d8148bv1f5ed29327850c79@mail.gmail.com> References: <49ffd2240708010848k6892cbd8m7b33d79e7e05177f@mail.gmail.com> <005d01c7d453$f4192090$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> <945cfca20708010856g49d8148bv1f5ed29327850c79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Disbelief is both the occlusion of sleeper's memory and perception as they deny the existence of the supernatural, and a willpower based dispel magic generated by sleepers witnessing vulgar effects. A spell that is normally covert becomes improbable, not on the basis of witnesses, but when the storyteller deems reality can no longer accept the effect as covert. An improbable spell is treated as if it were vulgar making it subject to disbelief and to the paradox penalties for sleeper witnesses. Two different things entirely. David Blackwell US2002021120 On 8/1/07, David Sauter wrote: > Incorrect. Disbelief also generates a paradox draw. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Disbelief does not cause paradox ? it unravels spells. Also bad, but not > > directly related to paradox. > > > > > > > > James Evans > > > > US2004092015 > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On > > Behalf Of m0rtis > > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM > > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > > Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > > > > > > > > > > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell > > itself. Not because of anything else. > > > > Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can cause > > disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the spell > > vulgar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Wright > > US2002021042 > > Domain Storyteller - OKC > > Camarilla Wiki Community > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > From cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 12:56:54 2007 From: cotf.vst.awakening at gmail.com (Cotf VST Awakening) Date: Wed Aug 1 12:58:11 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <945cfca20708010926j4a16d168me2fcfe4ced4ad213@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000201c7d45c$f7edb920$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Ah, yeah - the disbelief actually only occurs once the improbably/vulgar effect is witnessed, which if a mage casts one of those spells in front of a sleeper witness, will *usually* be immediately, though I'm sure there are obvious exceptions. So, I guess, technically, the casting of a spell in and of itself isn't the cause for disbelief, but rather a sleeper witnessing the immediate effects of that casting. Tricksy business, it is. James Evans US2004092015 -----Original Message----- From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of David Sauter Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:26 PM To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert /me reads it again OK page 113 states that a sleeper witnessing an improbable spell causes ti to generate paradox. That says nothing about 'when it's cast'. On the other hand the Paradox section (127) says that paradox is generated when a vulgar spell is cast, or when a improbable spell is cast and witnessed. hm. Interesting - according to a more strict reading that I'd been using you could cast as many Vulgar spells as you want in a Demesne then walk out with them all active so long as there's no visible effect (to generate Disbelief) you're fine. Useful trick that. David Sauter US2002021140 On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > Nope... just read through Disbelief Rules on page 274 of M:tA - Disbelief > and Paradox (by witnessing a vulgar spell or covert spell that strains > credulity) are separate things, though can be caused by the same thing. > > Disbelief can unravel a spell as it's being cast, or a spell that is already > in play. Specifically, disbelief refers to the effects spells have on > sleeper witnesses and the effects that sleeper witnesses have on spells, > regardless as to whether or not they witness the casting or spell in effect. > Paradox is spawned from the same event does not have an effect on Disbelief, > only if that event is the casting of a vulgar spell or covert spell that > strains credulity, with exception that anomalies are not affected by > Disbelief (meaning mortal witnesses won't justify or forget the anomaly that > would have triggered the disbelief). > > James Evans > US2004092015 > > -----Original Message----- > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On Behalf Of David > Sauter > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:56 AM > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > Incorrect. Disbelief also generates a paradox draw. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Disbelief does not cause paradox - it unravels spells. Also bad, but not > > directly related to paradox. > > > > > > > > James Evans > > > > US2004092015 > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com > > [mailto:awakening-rules-bounces@cammail.white-wolf.com] On > > Behalf Of m0rtis > > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:48 AM > > To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > > Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the appropriate ST(s) can rule covert or vulgarity based on the venue and > > what the local perception of the WoD is for them. > > > > > > > > > > This is incorrect. A spell is Vulgar is described as Vulgar in the spell > > itself. Not because of anything else. > > > > Covert spells are always Covert unless cast sympathetically. They can > cause > > disbelief if witnessed, which can cause paradox, but does not make the > spell > > vulgar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dan Wright > > US2002021042 > > Domain Storyteller - OKC > > Camarilla Wiki Community > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > -- > ------ > David S > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > -- ------ David S _______________________________________________ Awakening-rules mailing list Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules From mindwright at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 13:19:27 2007 From: mindwright at gmail.com (David Blackwell) Date: Wed Aug 1 13:19:30 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Vulgar and Covert In-Reply-To: <000201c7d45c$f7edb920$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> References: <945cfca20708010926j4a16d168me2fcfe4ced4ad213@mail.gmail.com> <000201c7d45c$f7edb920$800101df@KDGVentures.lcl> Message-ID: Examples of Disbelief: During a recent combat scene, one player decide to cast a ban vs bullets. This resulted in the first shot fired simply dropping to the floor. The sleepers who saw it immediately rolled disbelief. Total successes on disbelief exceeded the potency of the spell which ended immediately. Same scene, another player used Matter to wall off the foyer where two gunmen had just burst out of a stairwell. The sleepers saw the wall appear and immediately rolled disbelief... but only got one success between the two of them. The wall stayed (only slightly degraded) and was reinforced (higher durability) by another spell the following round to keep them from physically breaking it down. Since it takes 10 minutes before another draw for disbelief comes around, everyone was able to escape except for two mages who deliberately went after those gunmen. One mage died and the other teleported away after being severely wounded. David Blackwell US2002021120 On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > Ah, yeah - the disbelief actually only occurs once the improbably/vulgar > effect is witnessed, which if a mage casts one of those spells in front of a > sleeper witness, will *usually* be immediately, though I'm sure there are > obvious exceptions. > > So, I guess, technically, the casting of a spell in and of itself isn't the > cause for disbelief, but rather a sleeper witnessing the immediate effects > of that casting. > > Tricksy business, it is. > > James Evans > US2004092015 > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Sauter > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 12:26 PM > > /me reads it again > > OK page 113 states that a sleeper witnessing an improbable spell > causes ti to generate paradox. That says nothing about 'when it's > cast'. On the other hand the Paradox section (127) says that paradox > is generated when a vulgar spell is cast, or when a improbable spell > is cast and witnessed. > > hm. Interesting - according to a more strict reading that I'd been > using you could cast as many Vulgar spells as you want in a Demesne > then walk out with them all active so long as there's no visible > effect (to generate Disbelief) you're fine. Useful trick that. > > David Sauter > US2002021140 > > On 8/1/07, Cotf VST Awakening wrote: > > Nope... just read through Disbelief Rules on page 274 of M:tA - Disbelief > > and Paradox (by witnessing a vulgar spell or covert spell that strains > > credulity) are separate things, though can be caused by the same thing. > > > > Disbelief can unravel a spell as it's being cast, or a spell that is > > already in play. Specifically, disbelief refers to the effects spells have on > > sleeper witnesses and the effects that sleeper witnesses have on spells, > > regardless as to whether or not they witness the casting or spell in > > effect. > > Paradox is spawned from the same event does not have an effect on > > Disbelief,only if that event is the casting of a vulgar spell or covert spell that > > strains credulity, with exception that anomalies are not affected by > > Disbelief (meaning mortal witnesses won't justify or forget the anomaly > > that would have triggered the disbelief). > > > > James Evans > > US2004092015 From perfectedadept at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 13:24:07 2007 From: perfectedadept at gmail.com (Black Arrow) Date: Wed Aug 1 13:24:10 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Every electron is sacred... Message-ID: <4f9d99ab0708011024x11a92906o277837ec04add939@mail.gmail.com> Please try to remember to trim your posts - excessive quoting is especially annoying for those of us who read this list via digest. Thanks! -- Peter Smalley NWARST-Awakening US2003102464 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/4ba40511/attachment.html From auronculari63 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 15:46:24 2007 From: auronculari63 at yahoo.com (Luke Hill) Date: Wed Aug 1 15:46:25 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Scrying Message-ID: <589021.46842.qm@web54109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm starting a separate thread since the thread on "Vulgar and Covert"seems to be dedicated to a separate issue. My thinking is that sympathetic range is built into Scrying, first ofall. Like other spells resident in the Space arcanum (at 2+ dots), itseems reasonable to me to think that Scrying was intended to be used atSympathetic range, and that the Aspect was adjusted to suit the intentof the authors in that regard. Given that, my thinking has always beenthat Scrying at Sympathetic Range is the same as any other kind ofScrying in that it is Covert in Aspect, though it might becomeImprobable (and thus subject to Paradox and Disbelief/Unraveling)within the guidelines given in the spell. What leads me to think that? The following passages... (from "Scrying," pg 235, Mage: the Awakening) "This spell canbe used for a variety of purposes, from checking up on a loved one tospying on a hated enemy." and (from "Scrying," pg. 235, Mage: the Awakening) "If he touchessomeone through the scrying window [...] [and the target] knows thatsomething has just touched him, [...] [then the sensation] is enough toinvoke Sleeper Disbelief (pg. 274)." and (from "Disbelief," pg. 274, Mage: the Awakening) "When aSleeper witnesses a vulgar act of magic, it always triggers Disbelief.[...] Covert magic does not trigger Disbelief unless it strainscredulity (see "Improbable Magic," pg. 112)." My reasoning is as follows... Given that the examples listed in the spell require Sympathetic Range(since you wouldn't need to check in on someone you could already see,and spying on someone is usually done from afar), and the spell lateruses an If/then structure in talking about how it might "invoke SleeperDisbelief," which is only invoked when a Covert spell strains credulity(as in the case of a person getting the sensation of being touchedwithout any visible source for that sensation)... I'm led to believethat, the majority of the time, it is neither Covert nor subject toSleeper Disbelief. If it were meant to be Vulgar, I'm pretty sure theywould have mentioned that somewhere in the spell, given that theexamples cited for its primary purpose involve Sympathetic Range.Additionally, it explicitly mentions Sympathetic penalties in thespell, but omits any mention of a change in Aspect from Covert toVulgar. To me, that says the authors intended it to operate as a Covertspell at Sympathetic Range, in exception to the mass of spells thatbecome Vulgar at Sympathetic Range. Now, my metaphysical explanation for that is as follows... Sympathetic Range, in my mind, is a construct added to spells that areintended to affect targets in remote locations. A Telekinesisspell that's intended to smack someone in Armenia with a frozenhalibut, for instance, affects that target across great distance... andthat's Vulgar. Scrying, on the contrary, does not affect the targetunless and until the scrying window touches them (a contingency dealtwith explicitly in the spell's write-up), it only passesinformation back from that remote locale, to the caster. As such,it's not like other Sympathetic Range spells that invoke action at adistance... instead, it only enhances the caster'sinformation-gathering power, such that they have knowledge they wouldotherwise lack. Because the communication is one-way, from thetarget to the caster, rather than one-way from the caster tothe target, the spell's Aspect of Covert is preserved. I admitthat's a pretty odd way of looking at things, gleaned from my ownpersonal reading of the rules... but I hope that helps explain for someof you where I come by my earlier interpretations. So, how many of you think I've lost my mind? :P Happy trails, Luke Hill US2004031302 P.S. I'd like to try and clearup a few other things that I saw which sounded like they neededclearing up, too... 1) Sensory range isn't always 200 yards - that's just the maximum,under ideal conditions. That maximum is designed to keep people fromdefining the moon or the horizon as being within sensory range simplybecause they can see them. 2) Disbelief and Improbability are weird. How I've always read them isto say that a spell can become Improbable if a sleeper witness wouldcall bullshit on it... and if a sleeper witness DOES call bullshit on aspell (by seeing it and not believing it - not by *actually* callingbullshit... just to clear that up before I have to clarify :P), then it becomes Improbable and causes Disbelief/Unraveling. Once aspell becomes Improbable you roll for Paradox based upon the Sleeperwitnesses, and the Sleeper witness does his first check for Unraveling.From there on out you just keep with the rules for Unraveling, as themind of the Sleeper(s) witnessing the spell reels against thecompletely unbelievable thing s/he's seeing. 3) The rules of every venue, and the Cam in general, are defined by thefollowing documents: ??? f) The National Addendum of the Nation in which a given game istaking place??? ??? e) The Camarilla Addendum in its present draft??? ??? d) The core and ancillary rule books of the venue in question, andoccasionally the rule books of other venues when applicable ??? c) The MET core rulebooks and all non-venue specific rule books?? ??? b) The discretion of a duly-empowered National or Global ST withjurisdiction over the rules of a given venue, or rules in general ??? a) The discretion of the ST in charge of the game in which you areplaying note: I listed those in reverse order for a reason. National addendaare empowered to override the Cam addendum, for instance, and canoverride venue specific and non-venue specific rules if they reallywant to. Venue specific rulebooks can [and often do] override non-venuespecific rules, but cannot override either the Cam or National addenda,while ST discretion is the most frequent tool of rules interpretationbut falls at the bottom of the pyramid, being overriden by all otherrules sources. Just so we're clear on how that list is organized. Alsonote the sorts of things that *aren't* included in this list...specifically, things like "Regional Addenda," or rules interpretationsfrom Regional Storytellers. They have a great deal of power, but theydon't have that particular power. They can suggest a particular rulesinterpretation, they can bring up that rules question with National orGlobal officers... but they are not themselves empowered to changerules or override the rules interpretations of local STs.--------------060801020200020803040703-- --------------------------------- Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/bfa5e165/attachment.html From electrodyne at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 17:04:04 2007 From: electrodyne at gmail.com (John Ward) Date: Wed Aug 1 17:04:07 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Re: [Awakening-ooc] (non) vulgarity of scrying In-Reply-To: <2d014aea0708011330r13d14bdbga6762c247f8f80bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <700411.63502.qm@web88209.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <2d014aea0708010800k700959e9qb4386cb7c9153720@mail.gmail.com> <26127312-2D05-4E18-AF90-E12E68A1A337@mac.com> <2d014aea0708010902y7564ce95vc2ab615e944ae8da@mail.gmail.com> <9FB98F30-34E1-404D-8764-ACC1A9AB0BC6@mac.com> <8ba9df090708010959i408eea34u72504e0b33db941d@mail.gmail.com> <9b6642110708011007v5837a52el33aafedf0c67cf50@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0708011219x52a3244bnef15223693d21766@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708011323t5e934e52k3aed3c1940d8874b@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0708011330r13d14bdbga6762c247f8f80bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ba9df090708011404i18bc5be9u7f0cef2e0717bba6@mail.gmail.com> Precisely! Seeing another time, of the same location = covert Seeing another place, within the same timeframe = covert Interacting through said Seeing (tap on the shoulder) = Naughty List! Doing anything that effects the other place you're Scrying to e.g. Seeing another time, at another place = Naughty List! :) And yes, Apportation is a completely different spell, a small-item teleport/pickpocket/grab-that-thing if you will, but we're not quite up to discussing it yet without melting those nonsympathetic (pun intended) minds reading this thread. -John Ward us2002022842 On 8/1/07, Jonathan Argles wrote: > Eh? That's not what it says at all. > > What it says is that seeing the past based on touching a set object or > area is covert, and can be done without penalities; seeing beyond your > sensory range perception (either in this time or the past) is > sympathetic and vulgar. > > Santa's okay with you seeing the dead man's past, so long as you're > holding his hand. He's okay with you seeing the bad man's face, so > long as you can also hear (or possibly smell) him. If you're in the > other room and trying to read the past, then Santa puts you on his bad > boy list and you need to know they location you're trying to peep at. > > Doing something through a Scry window is Apportation - a complete other spell. > > Jon A > Uk0006964 > (subscribing to rules-awakening to continue this) > > > On 8/1/07, John Ward wrote: > > Awesome, thank you! > > > > So what this shows is that a sensory spell, even if it itself > > traverses time or space to inform the caster about something, is > > Covert - Santa doesn't know you've been naughty, nor does he seem to > > care. Postcog examines the time axis of your current location, and > > Scry examines the locational axes of your current timeframe :) > > > > As far as the other stuff goes, I think we would all agree that using > > Postcog on the bathroom next door that you can't sense is vulgar, but > > thank you kindly for adding that info! :D > > > > Soooooooo...Scry is Covert because it's Sensory, just like Postcog or > > any of the other various sight/informational effects. Once you're > > using a Scry window, and try to do something *through* it, is when the > > icky happens. > > > > -John Ward > > us2002022842 From ragabash13 at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 18:19:58 2007 From: ragabash13 at gmail.com (John "Decker" Pool) Date: Wed Aug 1 18:20:00 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Scrying In-Reply-To: <589021.46842.qm@web54109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <589021.46842.qm@web54109.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <584cf3b00708011519u471ef844x64ca2cb7025cfe24@mail.gmail.com> > > My reasoning is as follows... > > Given that the examples listed in the spell require Sympathetic Range > (since you wouldn't need to check in on someone you could already see, and > spying on someone is usually done from afar), and the spell later uses an > If/then structure in talking about how it might "invoke Sleeper Disbelief," > which is only invoked when a Covert spell strains credulity (as in the case > of a person getting the sensation of being touched without any visible > source for that sensation)... I'm led to believe that, the majority of the > time, it is neither Covert nor subject to Sleeper Disbelief. If it were > meant to be Vulgar, I'm pretty sure they would have mentioned that somewhere > in the spell, given that the examples cited for its primary purpose involve > Sympathetic Range. Additionally, it explicitly mentions Sympathetic > penalties in the spell, but omits any mention of a change in Aspect from > Covert to Vulgar. To me, that says the authors intended it to operate as a > Covert spell at Sympathetic Range, in exception to the mass of spells that > become Vulgar at Sympathetic Range. Sensory range is not just visual range however. You could Scry someone on the other side of a doorway whom you could hear without needing Sympathic range. You could open a Scrying window to see what cards your poker buddy has in his hand. And unless I'm wrong, you could also use a Scrying window to listen in on a conversation behind glass that is either too thick for sound to travel through or simply too far away to be audible. This would still fall under Covert and at Sensory Range. I will admit that there is not a vast range of things you can do with Scrying at Sensory range, but there are things that can be done that are useful. Many people think of Scrying as a long distance window without giving consideration as to it's uses when the target is near by, but the spell is still pretty effective at short range when used properly. -- John "Decker" Pool US2002022527 From auronculari63 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 19:02:44 2007 From: auronculari63 at yahoo.com (Luke Hill) Date: Wed Aug 1 19:02:47 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Scrying Message-ID: <21776.5248.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> John, My thoughts are below, following block quotes from your post whichappear in italics. Sensory range is not just visual range however. You could Scrysomeone on the other side of a doorway whom you could hear without needing Sympathic range. You could open a Scrying window to see what cards your poker buddy has in his hand. And unless I'm wrong, you could also use a Scrying window to listen in on a conversation behind glass that is either too thick for sound to travel through or simply too far away to be audible. All true; you could do all of those things with Scrying, and all ofthem would be Covert. In fact, it would be substantially easier to dothose things compared to checking up on someone outside of sensoryrange, or spying on a distant enemy, since you would not face asympathetic penalty for any of those. However, there are a variety ofother things you can do with Scrying that are also Covert, also useful,and often quite a bit more difficult (represented by a -2 to -10Sympathetic Penalty). This would still fall under Covert and at Sensory Range. I will admit that there is not a vast range of things you can do with Scrying at Sensory range, but there are things that can be done that are useful. Many people think of Scrying as a long distance window without giving consideration as to it's uses when the target is near by, but the spell is still pretty effective at short range when used properly. Oh, don't misapprehend. I'm not arguing that Scrying wouldn't be usefulif made Vulgar at Sympathetic range. My character San uses Scrying *allthe time,* and sometimes he uses it on targets in Sensory Range.Instead, I'm arguing that Scrying was not designed to be Vulgar atSympathetic Distance, because that would make the spell less useful thanit was written to be. It's an undue restriction, in my mind, andthat's why I'm arguing against it. Make sense? Sincerely, Luke Hill US2004031302 --------------080306030908010805030003-- --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/b8aad5ff/attachment.html From ragabash13 at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 19:12:22 2007 From: ragabash13 at gmail.com (John "Decker" Pool) Date: Wed Aug 1 19:12:25 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Scrying In-Reply-To: <21776.5248.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <21776.5248.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <584cf3b00708011612k1827fff0oa2dde94f68371e38@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/07, Luke Hill wrote: > > John, > > My thoughts are below, following block quotes from your post which appear > in italics. > > Sensory range is not just visual range however. You could Scry someone > on the other side of a doorway whom you could hear without needing > Sympathic range. You could open a Scrying window to see what cards > your poker buddy has in his hand. And unless I'm wrong, you could also > use a Scrying window to listen in on a conversation behind glass that > is either too thick for sound to travel through or simply too far away > to be audible. > > All true; you could do all of those things with Scrying, and all of them > would be Covert. In fact, it would be substantially easier to do those > things compared to checking up on someone outside of sensory range, or > spying on a distant enemy, since you would not face a sympathetic penalty > for any of those. However, there are a variety of other things you can do > with Scrying that are also Covert, also useful, and often quite a bit more > difficult (represented by a -2 to -10 Sympathetic Penalty). > > This would still fall under Covert and at Sensory Range. I will admit > that there is not a vast range of things you can do with Scrying at > Sensory range, but there are things that can be done that are useful. > > Many people think of Scrying as a long distance window without giving > consideration as to it's uses when the target is near by, but the > spell is still pretty effective at short range when used properly. > > Oh, don't misapprehend. I'm not arguing that Scrying wouldn't be useful if > made Vulgar at Sympathetic range. My character San uses Scrying *all the > time,* and sometimes he uses it on targets in Sensory Range. Instead, I'm > arguing that Scrying was not designed to be Vulgar at Sympathetic Distance, > because that would make the spell less useful than it was written to be. > It's an undue restriction, in my mind, and that's why I'm arguing against > it. > > Make sense? I understand your logic but must disagree with it for a single point. It's a level 2 spell. If it was something greater, I would concede that changes would need to be made. As it is though, I find it comparable to other level 2 spells as written. I can see that possibility that the current wording may have been a mistaken, but I'm just not convinced that it's a mistake that really needs to be fixed. :) -- John "Decker" Pool US2002022527 From capntypo at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 19:27:20 2007 From: capntypo at gmail.com (Ben Sims) Date: Wed Aug 1 19:27:23 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Scrying In-Reply-To: <584cf3b00708011612k1827fff0oa2dde94f68371e38@mail.gmail.com> References: <21776.5248.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <584cf3b00708011612k1827fff0oa2dde94f68371e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9b6642110708011627y263122f9ye996514268a6f7c5@mail.gmail.com> > I understand your logic but must disagree with it for a single point. > It's a level 2 spell. If it was something greater, I would concede > that changes would need to be made. As it is though, I find it > comparable to other level 2 spells as written. > > I can see that possibility that the current wording may have been a > mistaken, but I'm just not convinced that it's a mistake that really > needs to be fixed. :) OOC =================================================== There is no need for a change, Just use it straight from the book, it only has one use... Yall are reading too much into this. -Ben Sims Us2002034332 Aim-Capntypo ICQ-93643392 Killing a PC during a pre-con proxy is the ST equivalent to premature ejaculation. -Ben Sims From eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com Wed Aug 1 23:45:27 2007 From: eric.matthew.moore at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Wed Aug 1 23:45:29 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Re: (non) vulgarity of scrying Message-ID: <8efd93220708012045t7a64f3a2h1b286325c2f064d@mail.gmail.com> Wow. This makes that other line totally irrelevant. And makes me wonder why it's there at all. *rereads all of it one more time* Order of operations, Eric my lad. It would have been simpler if they'd removed both of those lines and put a line in Scrying saying it must be cast sympathetically when outside of normal range (rather than trying to clarify it in other places, or simply saying to use the connection chart rather than all of the rules). Now, this prompts the question: do you apply the sympathy penalty twice when you actually cast it sympathetically? My apologies, Anthony. E.M. Moore US2004112432 I have a promise to keep: Caelestis Proles. On 8/1/07, awakening-ooc-request@cammail.white-wolf.com < awakening-ooc-request@cammail.white-wolf.com> wrote: > > Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 20:48:24 +0100 > From: "Jonathan Argles" > Subject: Re: [Awakening-ooc] (non) vulgarity of scrying > To: "OOC list for players in the Awakening venue" > > Message-ID: > <2d014aea0708011248o647396a1g901cc4b449867c36@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > Scrying is never cast sympathetically, or that line would not need to be > > there. It never costs a Mana and never is vulgar, though I'd rule that > while > > looking through it, it may cost the caster his Defense. > > p.115. Spells that do not directly affect a target can be cast as > described above [the sympathetic connection rules] These include > scrying spells, where a scrying window allows a caster to observe a > target or area. > > sympathetic = vulgar + mana > > Jon A > UK0006964 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070801/3c4118e5/attachment.html From swiftone at swiftone.org Thu Aug 2 12:11:35 2007 From: swiftone at swiftone.org (Brett Ritter) Date: Thu Aug 2 12:11:44 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Scrying In-Reply-To: <584cf3b00708011612k1827fff0oa2dde94f68371e38@mail.gmail.com> References: <21776.5248.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <584cf3b00708011612k1827fff0oa2dde94f68371e38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a6bb9960708020911t56d42677v404de319476cc150@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/07, John Decker Pool wrote: > I understand your logic but must disagree with it for a single point. > It's a level 2 spell. If it was something greater, I would concede > that changes would need to be made. As it is though, I find it > comparable to other level 2 spells as written. As written as a Covert spell, I agree. As written as an almost-always-vulgar spell, I disagree. "As written" is not a very helpful phrase, since the disagreement is about how it works "as written" :) -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne US2003011110 swiftone@swiftone.org From electrodyne at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 19:39:17 2007 From: electrodyne at gmail.com (John Ward) Date: Thu Aug 2 19:39:21 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Scrying In-Reply-To: <6a6bb9960708020911t56d42677v404de319476cc150@mail.gmail.com> References: <21776.5248.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <584cf3b00708011612k1827fff0oa2dde94f68371e38@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960708020911t56d42677v404de319476cc150@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ba9df090708021639y219350edl4d71ffe4fe3597a2@mail.gmail.com> So we have this spell, Scrying. It's a Covert sensory spell. You cast it, then view/sense a remote location. It uses the sympathy rules to determine the difficulty of viewing its target. We also have this rule about sympathetic spells, whereby the addition of Space 2 to a spell allows it to be cast sympathetically - affecting a target some distance away, costing a mana, and making it a Vulgar spell. My question is this: Why would you want to make Scrying a sympathetic spell? Yes, it's actually a rhetorical question, don't answer it. You wouldn't want to make it sympathetic, unless you were being very very very sneaky about something - for instance scrying a room, then sympathetically casting Scrying from that room to another location, viewing your second target through the Scrying cast on/at the first target. Everyone still with me? Here's an example. You look into your coffee to see the mens' room at the Mayor's office. Then the sympathetically-cast Scrying allows you to see your enemy's boudoir through the Scrying in the toilet bowl of the mens' room. You sick freak. The up-side of this is that when your enemy launches an attack back through the sympathy of Scry #2 (pun intended), all he does is blow up the third stall, and not your kitchen. The down-side is that your second casting of Scrying, the sympathetic one, can possibly get two sympathy penalties. I'm not certain if penalties override same-type penalties like bonuses do. Another useful application of a sympathetically-cast Scrying would be to send a message. You've encountered Al the Arrow's sunglasses before. Sympathetically cast Scrying on them, and either Al or whoever happens to be looking at Al (depending on which surface of the glasses you use as the "viewing" end of the Scrying) gets to look at whatever you want him to (the "viewed" end of the Scrying). This is another case that might invoke double-sympathy penalties - one for your connection to Al's glasses, and another for your connection to whatever you want Al to look at. Probably the mens' room from the previous example, since you're a sick little monkey as we proved in that example. So a sympathetically-cast scrying does what? It puts the *viewing* end of the Scry conduit, some distance away from the caster's person. Therefore... Scrying is a sensory spell that happens to use the Sympathy rules to determine the penalty of sensing your target. Probably because it's convenient, already published in the same book, and makes sense. A sympathetically-cast spell has its effect elsewhere. Like the mens' room. Pervert. - John Ward us2002022842 P.S. If, as you read this, you realize you're actually a person of upstanding moral character, I politely retract all my offensive comments. Except possibly the second one. From d141v145 at gmail.com Thu Aug 2 21:19:45 2007 From: d141v145 at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu Aug 2 21:19:47 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Scrying In-Reply-To: <8ba9df090708021639y219350edl4d71ffe4fe3597a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <21776.5248.qm@web54110.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <584cf3b00708011612k1827fff0oa2dde94f68371e38@mail.gmail.com> <6a6bb9960708020911t56d42677v404de319476cc150@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708021639y219350edl4d71ffe4fe3597a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e14af370708021819u5e139c53y95d736eeb8d99e85@mail.gmail.com> On 8/2/07, John Ward wrote: > A long description of making sense... < > > - John Ward > us2002022842 That makes so much sense. I think I'll forward that to my VST for consideration. [Matt Burr] [US205053470] From d141v145 at gmail.com Tue Aug 7 16:01:38 2007 From: d141v145 at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue Aug 7 16:01:41 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Re: [Awakening-ooc] Re: Sensory Range In-Reply-To: <2d014aea0708070008y2c24fa7i3cc16879b4687d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <8efd93220708060224n4e3a2502pef251d5fcce13834@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0708060250v53b9c957x38633b65f953944d@mail.gmail.com> <57475edd0708060956o42578001sc058b60cd8af08a2@mail.gmail.com> <2d014aea0708070008y2c24fa7i3cc16879b4687d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e14af370708071301m51a973bs453c6356c8eefd1a@mail.gmail.com> > In fact, can anyone else see any posts after Matt Burr's "That makes > so much sense?" Maybe it's just me. OH NOES! Did I breaks the list? Also sent to the Awakening Rules list to see what happens... [Matt Burr] [US205053470] From speakerofthecrone at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 10:58:42 2007 From: speakerofthecrone at gmail.com (Ryan Morgan) Date: Thu Aug 9 10:58:44 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions Message-ID: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> I have a problem here with a local player. There seems to be some confusion as to the "Spirit Court" (Spirit ?????) spell. I've copied it below for quick refference. This spell enables a mage to create a spirit court of her own, one in which she is the ranking "spirit noble." The court can be filled with its own courtiers, enforcers, spies, hangers-on and such. Practice: Making Action: Extended (target number = spirit Rank desired) Duration: Prolonged (one scene) Aspect: Covert Cost: None By casting this spell, the mage takes on a Rank (see pp. 317-318) among spirits no higher than the lesser of her Spirit Arcanum or Gnosis. Spirits of lesser Rank than the mage seek (or may be persuaded) to attach themselves to her court, and she is treated with the respect, honor and dignity due one of her station. Of course, the mage is expected to uphold the dictates and etiquette of the spirit courts (meaning she had best be thoroughly conversant in them) and may herself be offered a position within the court of a still more powerful entity. When calling, controlling, binding or otherwise using sympathetic magic upon members of her court, the mage may cast spells as though a spirit were in Intimate sympathetic contact (p. 114) with her, without need of the Space Arcanum. Thus, she can easily heal one of her courtiers, regardless of where it is, but could not cast an offensive spell at other spirits through her subject without an appropriate Space component. Any spiritual alliances the mage makes are rendered null and void when the spell expires (at least, spirits don't uphold their end of any bargains, though many continue to expect the willworker to fulfill her outstanding obligations). The willworker is expected to support, protect and advise her vassals (and they are expected to do the same for her). Okay, now here is my problem. A player seems to think that he can just explode this spell out, and all of a sudden 'generate' a whole bunch of rank 3 and rank 2 spirits - due to the reference of 'create a spirit court of your own' in the title of the spell. I understand that mastery-level Arcana are broken (and in my oppinion, massivly over-populated in the awakening venue - but that is a different debate for another time) - But does anyone else feel that 'spawning' spirits for no mana can be massivly abused? Regarless, in reading the spell, does it even -allow- for you to do that? My seeing this spell, it allows you to become a spirit in the eyes of the other courts of the city, of high enough stature to have 'minions' of your own, and as a roleplaying tool you can manipulate other spirits to join you away from the other courts. If that was the case, I wonder if it might be 'renewed' kind of like the Prime Rote "Forge Tupla" - rather than letting it expire. How do you all see it? -- Ryan Morgan - US2003112512 Gainesville Mage VST "The upside to not thinking about the consequences is that you'll always surprise those who do" From bcmagevst at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 11:35:07 2007 From: bcmagevst at gmail.com (Steve Cothard) Date: Thu Aug 9 11:35:10 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> > > My seeing this spell, it allows you to become a spirit in the eyes of > the other courts of the city, of high enough stature to have 'minions' > of your own, and as a roleplaying tool you can manipulate other > spirits to join you away from the other courts. If that was the case, > I wonder if it might be 'renewed' kind of like the Prime Rote "Forge > Tupla" - rather than letting it expire. That is totally the call to make, in my opinion. When you have a spirit rank, you can attract or repel spirits the same way as they would be attracted to or repeled from a spirit like you. I also have a player who uses it often, and we've always seen eye-to-eye on this interpretation. -- Steve Cothard VST - Awakening: Barb City, IL017D US AANST - Awakening: Plot and Settings US2005106753 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070809/caf6807d/attachment.html From speakerofthecrone at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 11:47:16 2007 From: speakerofthecrone at gmail.com (Ryan Morgan) Date: Thu Aug 9 11:47:18 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> While I am on this topic, I had a visiting player from Orlando, as well as a local player say something like "you have spirit rank = to spirit arcana or gnosis which ever is lower in the shadow". Who has heard of this rule, and is it true? Is this some house rule that got blown out of whack and somehow made it's way into the cam? I have not found -any- source material to back this claim. To my knowladge the only spell that gives you an effective 'rank' as a spirit, and allows you as membership of the other realm, to have spirits 'under you' - is Spirit 5, Spirit Court. If anyone knows of any other spell that does this, please inform. I realise there is a merit, but I am talking about -spells- here. On 8/9/07, Steve Cothard wrote: > > > My seeing this spell, it allows you to become a spirit in the eyes of > > the other courts of the city, of high enough stature to have 'minions' > > of your own, and as a roleplaying tool you can manipulate other > > spirits to join you away from the other courts. If that was the case, > > I wonder if it might be 'renewed' kind of like the Prime Rote "Forge > > Tupla" - rather than letting it expire. > > That is totally the call to make, in my opinion. When you have a spirit > rank, you can attract or repel spirits the same way as they would be > attracted to or repeled from a spirit like you. I also have a player who > uses it often, and we've always seen eye-to-eye on this interpretation. > > -- > Steve Cothard > VST - Awakening: Barb City, IL017D > US AANST - Awakening: Plot and Settings > US2005106753 > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > -- Ryan Morgan - US2003112512 "The upside to not thinking about the consequences is that you'll always surprise those who do" From electrodyne at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 12:03:09 2007 From: electrodyne at gmail.com (John Ward) Date: Thu Aug 9 12:03:14 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> It's the first sentence of the mechanical part. "By casting this spell, the mage takes on a Rank (see pp. 317-318) among spirits no higher than the lesser of her Spirit Arcanum or Gnosis." Other than this spell, you have no Rank. Those guys both go on the NAUGHTY LIST! -John Ward us2002022842 On 8/9/07, Ryan Morgan wrote: > While I am on this topic, I had a visiting player from Orlando, as > well as a local player say something like "you have spirit rank = to > spirit arcana or gnosis which ever is lower in the shadow". Who has > heard of this rule, and is it true? Is this some house rule that got > blown out of whack and somehow made it's way into the cam? I have not > found -any- source material to back this claim. > > To my knowladge the only spell that gives you an effective 'rank' as a > spirit, and allows you as membership of the other realm, to have > spirits 'under you' - is Spirit 5, Spirit Court. If anyone knows of > any other spell that does this, please inform. I realise there is a > merit, but I am talking about -spells- here. > From auronculari63 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 12:36:54 2007 From: auronculari63 at yahoo.com (Luke Hill) Date: Thu Aug 9 12:36:55 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions Message-ID: <110970.11128.qm@web54108.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Ryan, I think your interpretation on this one is correct... and here's why. Quote 1: "This spell enables a mage to create a spirit court ofher own" Quote 2: "By casting this spell, the mage takes on a Rank (seepp. 317-318) among spirits no higher than the lesser of her SpiritArcanum or Gnosis. Spirits of lesser Rank than the mage seek (or may bepersuaded) to attach themselves to her court, and she is treated withthe respect, honor and dignity due one of her station." Quote 1 doesn't say the spell creates the court... it says the spell enablesthe Mage to create the court. Quote 2 explains this further, bysaying that spirits attach themselves to the Mage's authority, creatinga court over time. Combine that with the fact that creating a spirit is*already* a Spirit 5 spell, and it should be pretty obvious that thisspell, of the same rating as another spell that only creates onespirit, is not powerful enough to create a court of spirits on its own. Or, that's my $0.02 Sincerely, Luke Hill US2004031302 Ryan Morgan wrote: I have a problem here with a local player. There seems to be someconfusion as to the "Spirit Court" (Spirit ?????) spell. I've copiedit below for quick refference.[snip!]My seeing this spell, it allows you to become a spirit in the eyes ofthe other courts of the city, of high enough stature to have 'minions'of your own, and as a roleplaying tool you can manipulate otherspirits to join you away from the other courts. If that was the case,I wonder if it might be 'renewed' kind of like the Prime Rote "ForgeTupla" - rather than letting it expire.How do you all see it? --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070809/7059d449/attachment.html From eddyw at freelance.white-wolf.com Thu Aug 9 15:42:02 2007 From: eddyw at freelance.white-wolf.com (Eddy Webb) Date: Thu Aug 9 15:41:11 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Testing Message-ID: <4AF5B602BC63430EAACE5DC508E38129.MAI@isd.eve-online.com> Just testing a new email account. Please ignore. Eddy Webb, US2002021084 Freelancer, White Wolf Publishing http://www.white-wolf.com From d141v145 at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 17:57:08 2007 From: d141v145 at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu Aug 9 17:57:10 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> > Other than this spell, you have no Rank. Those guys both go on the > NAUGHTY LIST! > > -John Ward > us2002022842 Aaaahhhhh... no. I know pretty much for a fact that every Spirit Master in Orlando maintains the spell "Spirit Court" almost 24/7... we kinda need to seeing as how active and potent the Orlando Shadowlands are. This may have been the start of the confusion. Also Scions of God get a rank as their third attainment. However I'm sure some people get confused by the rote and the (inappropriately named) merit Spirit Status thinking either one give what they don't. After all Road Master (Spirit 4 rote) gives more benefits than just 'sidestepping'... without it needing to be cast. This may have at led to other confusions in regards to the rote Spirit Court. Also, guys, Spirit Arcana has been gimped... cut us Spirit Masters some slack, eh? [Matt Burr] [US205053470] From rulesninja at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 18:02:00 2007 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Thu Aug 9 18:02:02 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240708091502s777a7d8ct55e9fc7c70bc2eeb@mail.gmail.com> > > Also, guys, Spirit Arcana has been gimped... cut us Spirit Masters > some slack, eh? Indeed it was gimped. Hard. But rightfully so. It was the single most broken set of powers in the entire game. Numina and Influences are seriously broken in the hands of PCs. Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC Camarilla Wiki Community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070809/1532078e/attachment.html From speakerofthecrone at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 18:17:29 2007 From: speakerofthecrone at gmail.com (Ryan Morgan) Date: Thu Aug 9 18:17:31 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> Oh noes! I have to throw down with Matt? I accept! The basis of the argument is that you cannot get a 'rank' as a spirit unless you have this spell active. And more importnatly, this spell cannot be refreshed by 'adding' success on like Forge Tupla. Eventually, it expiires, and your court goes away, if you got anyone to follow you - they only stick around if they really want to. (as I cannot see anywhere that says you can tack that special rule on for any other spell to make a 'near infininte' cast so long as you renew it.' - and what extra benifit to do you see to road master, beyond that of controling who and what comes and goes? That's no different than space. And it has been rightfully gimped. Much like death was gimped. As it can give you an army of untouchable soliders - near instantly. On 8/9/07, Dave wrote: > > Other than this spell, you have no Rank. Those guys both go on the > > NAUGHTY LIST! > > > > -John Ward > > us2002022842 > > Aaaahhhhh... no. > > I know pretty much for a fact that every Spirit Master in Orlando > maintains the spell "Spirit Court" almost 24/7... we kinda need to > seeing as how active and potent the Orlando Shadowlands are. This may > have been the start of the confusion. > > Also Scions of God get a rank as their third attainment. > > However I'm sure some people get confused by the rote and the > (inappropriately named) merit Spirit Status thinking either one give > what they don't. After all Road Master (Spirit 4 rote) gives more > benefits than just 'sidestepping'... without it needing to be cast. > This may have at led to other confusions in regards to the rote Spirit > Court. > > > > Also, guys, Spirit Arcana has been gimped... cut us Spirit Masters > some slack, eh? > > [Matt Burr] > [US205053470] > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > -- Ryan Morgan - US2003112512 "The upside to not thinking about the consequences is that you'll always surprise those who do" From shaolin223 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 19:22:13 2007 From: shaolin223 at hotmail.com (Simon McNeil) Date: Thu Aug 9 19:22:18 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No. Spirits will gravitate to the mage but they don't conjure them out of the ether. That would be silly. ----------------------------------------------- IC Mage: Xidaren - Moros Mysterium OOC: Simon McNeil Member #: CA2000-12-205 "Fabricat Diem PVNC" _________________________________________________________________ Former Police Officer Paul Gillespie’s TAKE BACK THE INTERNET tips and tricks, watch the video now http://safety.sympatico.msn.ca/ From shaolin223 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 19:27:46 2007 From: shaolin223 at hotmail.com (Simon McNeil) Date: Thu Aug 9 19:27:55 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No... but here is what you can do: Spell 1 has a potency of 3 and a duration of 1 month. Spell 1 has 2 days left and joe spirit mage decides he wants to keep his spirit court. So he casts a ritual that gives him a duration of one month and a potency of 1. Since it's an identical casting it doesn't stack with the potency 3 version but it DOES automatically kick in the instant that the first spell ends. Joe spirit mage keeps his rank and thus keeps his court. ----------------------------------------------- IC Mage: Xidaren - Moros Mysterium OOC: Simon McNeil Member #: CA2000-12-205 "Fabricat Diem PVNC" >From: "Ryan Morgan" >Reply-To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > >To: "Rules discussion for the Awakening venue" > >Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions >Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:17:29 -0400 > >Oh noes! I have to throw down with Matt? I accept! > >The basis of the argument is that you cannot get a 'rank' as a spirit >unless you have this spell active. And more importnatly, this spell >cannot be refreshed by 'adding' success on like Forge Tupla. >Eventually, it expiires, and your court goes away, if you got anyone >to follow you - they only stick around if they really want to. (as I >cannot see anywhere that says you can tack that special rule on for >any other spell to make a 'near infininte' cast so long as you renew >it.' - and what extra benifit to do you see to road master, beyond >that of controling who and what comes and goes? That's no different >than space. > >And it has been rightfully gimped. Much like death was gimped. As it >can give you an army of untouchable soliders - near instantly. > >On 8/9/07, Dave wrote: > > > Other than this spell, you have no Rank. Those guys both go on the > > > NAUGHTY LIST! > > > > > > -John Ward > > > us2002022842 > > > > Aaaahhhhh... no. > > > > I know pretty much for a fact that every Spirit Master in Orlando > > maintains the spell "Spirit Court" almost 24/7... we kinda need to > > seeing as how active and potent the Orlando Shadowlands are. This may > > have been the start of the confusion. > > > > Also Scions of God get a rank as their third attainment. > > > > However I'm sure some people get confused by the rote and the > > (inappropriately named) merit Spirit Status thinking either one give > > what they don't. After all Road Master (Spirit 4 rote) gives more > > benefits than just 'sidestepping'... without it needing to be cast. > > This may have at led to other confusions in regards to the rote Spirit > > Court. > > > > > > > > Also, guys, Spirit Arcana has been gimped... cut us Spirit Masters > > some slack, eh? > > > > [Matt Burr] > > [US205053470] > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > >-- >Ryan Morgan - US2003112512 >"The upside to not thinking about the consequences is that you'll >always surprise those who do" >_______________________________________________ >Awakening-rules mailing list >Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules _________________________________________________________________ Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122 From kevin.drugan at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 22:32:09 2007 From: kevin.drugan at gmail.com (Kevin Drugan) Date: Thu Aug 9 22:32:12 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: References: <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <367db74b0708091932w52a731b2yf487ab5f7e7e7fbc@mail.gmail.com> Simon, Can you explain how that works under the rules? When you have two spells of the same kind cast, only the higher Potency one takes effect, but I've never seen anything about the lower Potency one hanging around in limbo until the higher Potency one goes away. - Kevin UK98040591 On 10/08/07, Simon McNeil wrote: > No... but here is what you can do: > > Spell 1 has a potency of 3 and a duration of 1 month. Spell 1 has 2 days > left and joe spirit mage decides he wants to keep his spirit court. So he > casts a ritual that gives him a duration of one month and a potency of 1. > Since it's an identical casting it doesn't stack with the potency 3 version > but it DOES automatically kick in the instant that the first spell ends. > Joe spirit mage keeps his rank and thus keeps his court. > > ----------------------------------------------- > IC Mage: Xidaren - Moros Mysterium > OOC: > Simon McNeil > Member #: CA2000-12-205 > > "Fabricat Diem PVNC" > > > > > >From: "Ryan Morgan" > >Reply-To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > > > >To: "Rules discussion for the Awakening venue" > > > >Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions > >Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:17:29 -0400 > > > >Oh noes! I have to throw down with Matt? I accept! > > > >The basis of the argument is that you cannot get a 'rank' as a spirit > >unless you have this spell active. And more importnatly, this spell > >cannot be refreshed by 'adding' success on like Forge Tupla. > >Eventually, it expiires, and your court goes away, if you got anyone > >to follow you - they only stick around if they really want to. (as I > >cannot see anywhere that says you can tack that special rule on for > >any other spell to make a 'near infininte' cast so long as you renew > >it.' - and what extra benifit to do you see to road master, beyond > >that of controling who and what comes and goes? That's no different > >than space. > > > >And it has been rightfully gimped. Much like death was gimped. As it > >can give you an army of untouchable soliders - near instantly. > > > >On 8/9/07, Dave wrote: > > > > Other than this spell, you have no Rank. Those guys both go on the > > > > NAUGHTY LIST! > > > > > > > > -John Ward > > > > us2002022842 > > > > > > Aaaahhhhh... no. > > > > > > I know pretty much for a fact that every Spirit Master in Orlando > > > maintains the spell "Spirit Court" almost 24/7... we kinda need to > > > seeing as how active and potent the Orlando Shadowlands are. This may > > > have been the start of the confusion. > > > > > > Also Scions of God get a rank as their third attainment. > > > > > > However I'm sure some people get confused by the rote and the > > > (inappropriately named) merit Spirit Status thinking either one give > > > what they don't. After all Road Master (Spirit 4 rote) gives more > > > benefits than just 'sidestepping'... without it needing to be cast. > > > This may have at led to other confusions in regards to the rote Spirit > > > Court. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, guys, Spirit Arcana has been gimped... cut us Spirit Masters > > > some slack, eh? > > > > > > [Matt Burr] > > > [US205053470] > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > > >-- > >Ryan Morgan - US2003112512 > >"The upside to not thinking about the consequences is that you'll > >always surprise those who do" > >_______________________________________________ > >Awakening-rules mailing list > >Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > _________________________________________________________________ > Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel > http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122 > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > From rulesninja at gmail.com Thu Aug 9 22:38:06 2007 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Thu Aug 9 22:38:09 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <367db74b0708091932w52a731b2yf487ab5f7e7e7fbc@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> <367db74b0708091932w52a731b2yf487ab5f7e7e7fbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240708091938s512369b3g9ccb9ab6ac81a943@mail.gmail.com> He's talking about rules on page 128 of MtA In addition, multiple spells with the same effect on the same target do not "stack" or accumulate. Only the spell with the highest Potency takes precedence. The other spells of the same kind remain, and may take effect if the Duration of the most potent spell expires, but they have no effect on Spell Tolerance until then. So you would Ritual Cast one to be Potency 3, Duration 1 Month, Then at the end of that Duration, at 29 Days, cast one at Potency 2, Duration 1 month, etc. While the spells wear off, the effect does not. On 8/9/07, Kevin Drugan wrote: > > Simon, > > Can you explain how that works under the rules? When you have two > spells of the same kind cast, only the higher Potency one takes > effect, but I've never seen anything about the lower Potency one > hanging around in limbo until the higher Potency one goes away. > > - Kevin > UK98040591 > > On 10/08/07, Simon McNeil wrote: > > No... but here is what you can do: > > > > Spell 1 has a potency of 3 and a duration of 1 month. Spell 1 has 2 > days > > left and joe spirit mage decides he wants to keep his spirit court. So > he > > casts a ritual that gives him a duration of one month and a potency of > 1. > > Since it's an identical casting it doesn't stack with the potency 3 > version > > but it DOES automatically kick in the instant that the first spell ends. > > Joe spirit mage keeps his rank and thus keeps his court. > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > IC Mage: Xidaren - Moros Mysterium > > OOC: > > Simon McNeil > > Member #: CA2000-12-205 > > > > "Fabricat Diem PVNC" > > > > > > > > > > >From: "Ryan Morgan" > > >Reply-To: Rules discussion for the Awakening venue > > > > > >To: "Rules discussion for the Awakening venue" > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions > > >Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 18:17:29 -0400 > > > > > >Oh noes! I have to throw down with Matt? I accept! > > > > > >The basis of the argument is that you cannot get a 'rank' as a spirit > > >unless you have this spell active. And more importnatly, this spell > > >cannot be refreshed by 'adding' success on like Forge Tupla. > > >Eventually, it expiires, and your court goes away, if you got anyone > > >to follow you - they only stick around if they really want to. (as I > > >cannot see anywhere that says you can tack that special rule on for > > >any other spell to make a 'near infininte' cast so long as you renew > > >it.' - and what extra benifit to do you see to road master, beyond > > >that of controling who and what comes and goes? That's no different > > >than space. > > > > > >And it has been rightfully gimped. Much like death was gimped. As it > > >can give you an army of untouchable soliders - near instantly. > > > > > >On 8/9/07, Dave wrote: > > > > > Other than this spell, you have no Rank. Those guys both go on > the > > > > > NAUGHTY LIST! > > > > > > > > > > -John Ward > > > > > us2002022842 > > > > > > > > Aaaahhhhh... no. > > > > > > > > I know pretty much for a fact that every Spirit Master in Orlando > > > > maintains the spell "Spirit Court" almost 24/7... we kinda need to > > > > seeing as how active and potent the Orlando Shadowlands are. This > may > > > > have been the start of the confusion. > > > > > > > > Also Scions of God get a rank as their third attainment. > > > > > > > > However I'm sure some people get confused by the rote and the > > > > (inappropriately named) merit Spirit Status thinking either one give > > > > what they don't. After all Road Master (Spirit 4 rote) gives more > > > > benefits than just 'sidestepping'... without it needing to be cast. > > > > This may have at led to other confusions in regards to the rote > Spirit > > > > Court. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, guys, Spirit Arcana has been gimped... cut us Spirit Masters > > > > some slack, eh? > > > > > > > > [Matt Burr] > > > > [US205053470] > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > >Ryan Morgan - US2003112512 > > >"The upside to not thinking about the consequences is that you'll > > >always surprise those who do" > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Awakening-rules mailing list > > >Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > >http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel > > http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Awakening-rules mailing list > > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > > > _______________________________________________ > Awakening-rules mailing list > Awakening-rules@cammail.white-wolf.com > http://cammail.white-wolf.com/mailman/listinfo/awakening-rules > Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC Camarilla Wiki Community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070809/3998e968/attachment.html From shaolin223 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 10:37:38 2007 From: shaolin223 at hotmail.com (Simon McNeil) Date: Fri Aug 10 10:37:47 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <367db74b0708091932w52a731b2yf487ab5f7e7e7fbc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I was sure I read it somewhere in the core book. The higher potency casting masks the lower potency casting until it's duration expires but the lower potency casting is still cast - just doesn't stack. I'll see if I can find the page reference. ----------------------------------------------- IC Mage: Xidaren - Moros Mysterium OOC: Simon McNeil Member #: CA2000-12-205 "Fabricat Diem PVNC" _________________________________________________________________ Former Police Officer Paul Gillespie’s TAKE BACK THE INTERNET tips and tricks, watch the video now http://safety.sympatico.msn.ca/ From shaolin223 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 10:45:00 2007 From: shaolin223 at hotmail.com (Simon McNeil) Date: Fri Aug 10 10:45:08 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Found it! "In addition, multiple spells with the same effect on the same target do not “stack” or accumulate. Only the spell with the highest Potency takes precedence. The other spells of the same kind remain, and may take effect if the Duration of the most potent spell expires, but they have no effect on Spell Tolerance until then. For example, if a mage casts a “Magic Shield” spell (see p. 222) on a subject, granting two points of armor against spells, and then casts another Magic Shield spell granting four points of armor, the subject has four points of armor, not two or six. If the four-point spell wears off before the other, the subject still has two points of armor remaining (from the first spell). In terms of Spell Tolerance, only the four-point spell applies to the subject’s total." Pg. 128 - Mage Core ----------------------------------------------- IC Mage: Xidaren - Moros Mysterium OOC: Simon McNeil Member #: CA2000-12-205 "Fabricat Diem PVNC" _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail. Even hotter than before. Get a better look now. www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA148 From d141v145 at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 18:45:38 2007 From: d141v145 at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri Aug 10 18:45:41 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e14af370708101545q44c1078bi366fcf2a6cd3468f@mail.gmail.com> > And it has been rightfully gimped. Much like death was gimped. As it > can give you an army of untouchable soliders - near instantly. If this was why it "rightfully" (and I'll argue that elsewhere if necessary) gimped, then it is less the fault of the Arcana and more the fault of local STs. As it was I was very tempted to app for a rewrite following the gimpage. The fact that, in the end, it really didn't effect my play style (and our VST continually curses the gimping and voes to keep Spirit antagonists to a minimum) was the only that kept me from bothering. As it stands Spirit Arcana is 'almost' useless when dealing with its 'own medium'. Almost. Fetishes are still sweet though. So yeah, for that alone I'm keeping it. [Matt Burr] [US205053470] From rulesninja at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 18:56:51 2007 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Fri Aug 10 18:56:55 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <1e14af370708101545q44c1078bi366fcf2a6cd3468f@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708101545q44c1078bi366fcf2a6cd3468f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240708101556s7f5206d1o2dee904b976eec4b@mail.gmail.com> > > If this was why it "rightfully" (and I'll argue that elsewhere if > necessary) gimped, then it is less the fault of the Arcana and more > the fault of local STs. Matt, That's not why I think it was rightfully Gimped. Spirits in of themselves are inherently powerful to those who have little to no means of dealing with them. Additionally, they were allowed to get around a number of rules that normally would restrict players. A quick example: Tommy the Thyrsus has Spirit 5, and the Rote Shape Spirit. He decides to Create a Rank 5 Spirit of Health in his Demense. He gets enough successes on the Extended Spell to give it 5 Influence in Health. Level 1 Influence - Allows a Spirit to Strengthen something within their Purview. +4 levels to make this Duration Permanent and 2 additional essence (3 in total for this) Tommy Makes the Spirit use it's Health Influence on him permanently increasing his health levels by 5 (which is in the Mage book on page 318 as one of the examples) with a permanent duration. It doesn't cause any paradox, they simply gain the health levels. -- Additionally, people use them to give spirits numina of spells that would normally be hard for them, or causes paradox each time it's used. With a Spirit, it gets around those restrictions, etc. Spirit was one of the most broken Arcanum. It still is. It's just not AS BAD as it was. Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC Camarilla Wiki Community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070810/ca3d4a70/attachment.html From d141v145 at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:31:43 2007 From: d141v145 at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri Aug 10 20:31:46 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <49ffd2240708101556s7f5206d1o2dee904b976eec4b@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708101545q44c1078bi366fcf2a6cd3468f@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240708101556s7f5206d1o2dee904b976eec4b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e14af370708101731ye5350dap2047e0e10e96d3a7@mail.gmail.com> > A quick example: > > Tommy the Thyrsus has Spirit 5, and the Rote Shape Spirit. He decides to > Create a Rank 5 Spirit of Health in his Demense. He gets enough successes on > the Extended Spell to give it 5 Influence in Health. > > Level 1 Influence - Allows a Spirit to Strengthen something within their > Purview. > +4 levels to make this Duration Permanent and 2 additional essence (3 in > total for this) > > Tommy Makes the Spirit use it's Health Influence on him permanently > increasing his health levels by 5 (which is in the Mage book on page 318 as > one of the examples) with a permanent duration. It doesn't cause any > paradox, they simply gain the health levels. Which is pretty well fixed under the notion of maximum successes equal Imago. In order for the Spirit to gain that many successes it would require very high abilities, which would limit its other potentials. As well this effect would still count under the maximum number effects a Mage could have active on themselves. Thirdly why is this Spirit so easily willing to aid Tommy? That is an ST call (or another spell to cast) hence my statement, most of these problems /could/ have been handled via STs. As well it is now no longer Low to get those Spirits into play... so yeah, good luck an that approval. It could also be treated as a stat boost, thus limiting how many the PC can have applicable. As it stands 1) most Spirit Aracana can no longer affect multiple Spirits, 2) No one can ever call, bind, or control more than 10 spirits in a scene (or likely an evening) due to Willpower expenditures, and 3) if the Spirit is rank 4 or better I may as be a Obrimos in order to deal with it. To me, changing how Spirits can interact with the PCs, rather than how the PCs can interact with the Spirits would have been a far better method. Because there is nothing stopping me from hunting down a Rank 5 "Health" Spirit (pending getting one approved) and conning my way into this bene you've mentioned. Which is how I've been operating for two years... so like I said, limiting how the Arcana affects the Spirits hasn't really affected me, except in my ability to negotiate an emergency. In those cases I bow out and leave it to the 'non' Spirit mages to deal with. > -- > Additionally, people use them to give spirits numina of spells that would > normally be hard for them, or causes paradox each time it's used. With a > Spirit, it gets around those restrictions, etc. Again ST controllable and endable. Or heck, just have that part revoked from PC capability. man that would have made my day over the other gimpings... or even let me get the hostage Willpower back after I drop a control spell, so I can effectively order Spirits to "Sit down, shut up, and stop being a problem" more than a handful of times in a night if necessary. As it stands, if I have to deal with more than 5 spirits in an "arcana" way, I go home afterwards cause I'm done. And if a rank 4 or 5 show up? And I have to get "jiggy" with it? Hell no, let the Obrimos deal with the 'demon' in their own polite 'burninate the countryside' fashion. > Spirit was one of the most broken Arcanum. It still is. It's just not AS BAD > as it was. Spirit may have been the most "misused", but broken? Not if the ST played it well. In two years I never saw those problems... but then in two years I never did mage at any cons or outside my domain either. [Matt Burr] [US205053470] From rulesninja at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:45:18 2007 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Fri Aug 10 20:45:21 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <1e14af370708101731ye5350dap2047e0e10e96d3a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fab74cd0708090758q25ffdd29t2ffb0e8023c77759@mail.gmail.com> <6a0eb8350708090835y7096d949o644dc413c272f9e6@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708090847i42d67a90qbc29f4c4ae026a84@mail.gmail.com> <8ba9df090708090903o35f615b1ga667af41e06196d4@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708091457n46755b47ic9dd1313d7347c99@mail.gmail.com> <9fab74cd0708091517i7a866766v534ad0ff28d28eda@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708101545q44c1078bi366fcf2a6cd3468f@mail.gmail.com> <49ffd2240708101556s7f5206d1o2dee904b976eec4b@mail.gmail.com> <1e14af370708101731ye5350dap2047e0e10e96d3a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240708101745k634fea57v9fc396c86b703834@mail.gmail.com> > > Which is pretty well fixed under the notion of maximum successes equal > Imago. It's still possible, though would require it to be cast as a rote with high Gnosis and stats. In order for the Spirit to gain that many successes it would > require very high abilities, which would limit its other potentials. The idea was to cast for that purpose alone. As well this effect would still count under the maximum number effects > a Mage could have active on themselves. No it wouldn't. A Spirits Influences is not a spell, and doesn't count against Spell Tolerance. Thirdly why is this Spirit so easily willing to aid Tommy? Shape Spirit, you can create a Spirit who's only purpose is to aid Tommy. That is an ST call (or another spell to cast) hence my statement, most of > these problems /could/ have been > handled via STs. Also, you could command spirits to do so. As well it is now no longer Low to get those Spirits > into play... so yeah, good luck an that approval. Like I said, this is an example of WHY Spirit was reduced in power. Without these limitations in play, it's VERY easy to do something like this. It could also be treated as a stat boost, thus limiting how many the > PC can have applicable. Health doesn't fit into the "Booster" rules. As it stands 1) most Spirit Aracana can no longer affect multiple > Spirits, 2) No one can ever call, bind, or control more than 10 > spirits in a scene (or likely an evening) due to Willpower > expenditures, and 3) if the Spirit is rank 4 or better I may as be a > Obrimos in order to deal with it. There's ways to deal with Spirits of that rank. They're not as simple, but you can with the Spirit Arcanum. To me, changing how Spirits can interact with the PCs, rather than how > the PCs can interact with the Spirits would have been a far better > method. Because there is nothing stopping me from hunting down a Rank > 5 "Health" Spirit (pending getting one approved) and conning my way > into this bene you've mentioned. You can do it with a number of methods. It's just one example of why Spirit needed to be gimped HARD. Which is how I've been operating for two years... so like I said, > limiting how the Arcana affects the Spirits hasn't really affected me, > except in my ability to negotiate an emergency. In those cases I bow > out and leave it to the 'non' Spirit mages to deal with. That's your choice IC. I know there's plenty of ways to deal with them. It really depends on the situation though. Most tend to deal with finding a ban. =) Hmm.. speaking of which, wonder if anyone got a "Know Ban" rote yet. > -- > > Additionally, people use them to give spirits numina of spells that > would > > normally be hard for them, or causes paradox each time it's used. With a > > Spirit, it gets around those restrictions, etc. > > Again ST controllable and endable. Or heck, just have that part > revoked from PC capability. man that would have made my day over the > other gimpings... or even let me get the hostage Willpower back after > I drop a control spell, so I can effectively order Spirits to "Sit > down, shut up, and stop being a problem" more than a handful of times > in a night if necessary. Again, just showing one example of why Spirit was broken out of the book. Spirit may have been the most "misused", but broken? Not if the ST > played it well. In two years I never saw those problems... but then > in two years I never did mage at any cons or outside my domain either. It's broken because you can use the Spirit rules to your favor by way of the Shape Spirit rote, and others. Numina and Influences become at your control once you make a spirit who's only purpose is to do what you created it to do. The only up side to this is that you cant have a permanent duration spell that does these things. Really, Spirit needed some toning down. I'd been telling people about it's insane power level since the beginning of the chronicle. It took almost 2 years to have them do something about it. I'm glad for the most part. Dan Wright US2002021042 Domain Storyteller - OKC Camarilla Wiki Community -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://cammail.white-wolf.com/pipermail/awakening-rules/attachments/20070810/34c97e97/attachment.html From shaolin223 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 20:58:40 2007 From: shaolin223 at hotmail.com (Simon McNeil) Date: Fri Aug 10 20:58:50 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: <1e14af370708101731ye5350dap2047e0e10e96d3a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Creating a spirit is vulgar right? That means as soon as it does something unnatural... like use any of it's numena or influences... around sleepers it's subject to unraveling and disbelief. Not the effect... the whole created spirit. ----------------------------------------------- IC Mage: Xidaren - Moros Mysterium OOC: Simon McNeil Member #: CA2000-12-205 "Fabricat Diem PVNC" _________________________________________________________________ Show Your Messenger Buddies How You Really Feel http://www.freemessengeremoticons.ca/?icid=EMENCA122 From rulesninja at gmail.com Fri Aug 10 21:05:18 2007 From: rulesninja at gmail.com (m0rtis) Date: Fri Aug 10 21:05:20 2007 Subject: [Awakening-rules] Spirit 5 and Lasting Duration Questions In-Reply-To: References: <1e14af370708101731ye5350dap2047e0e10e96d3a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49ffd2240708101805pe31e796td3cdfb5aafc914b0@mail.gmail.com> On 8/10/07, Simon McNeil wrote: > > > Creating a spirit is vulgar right? > > That means as soon as it does something unnatural... like use any of it's > numena or influences... around sleepers it's subject to unraveling and > disbe